This IS the Avid L2: 11/24/19

Saturday, November 30, 2019

Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

The only reason we are doing it is they are requiring it. I have no doubt that an HDR image stands out better than SDR. The consensus I've heard is that SDR compared to HDR is a much greater image improvement than 4K over HD. Sadly marketing has tied HDR to 4K. I think 5.1 surround sound adds to the viewing experience by making the sound more immersive. I haven't been to any ATMOS screenings so I can't speak to that. It seems that the improvement in home theaters is pushing the theatrical side of things to shift to things like ATMOS and DolbyVision to entice people to come to the theaters for the big screen and sound experience.

Not sure where HDR fits into all this but it seems after 3D fizzled again and UHD 4K was out HDR is another way to get people to buy new TVs. I'm not saying it's not a visual improvement but the workflows seem burdensome to me and the list of deliverables is fatiguing. I'm just trying to shovel one Nit at a time but I think I need a bigger shovel or maybe it's a smaller shovel with more metadata. My brain really hurts.

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 10:52 AM, Pat Horridge wrote:

Which all comes down to my question on HDR. What does it bring to telling the story?
Unless you are using HDR then what's the point of going that route?
It's similar to 5.1 surround. Unless it needs to bring something to it then why?

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Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

Which all comes down to my question on HDR. What does it bring to telling the story?
Unless you are using HDR then what's the point of going that route?
It's similar to 5.1 surround. Unless it needs to bring something to it then why?

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Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

Okay this is where reality meets theory. These are quick turn around shows and the thought of tracking all the lights with qualifiers just isn't practical. That would be every shot in the show. It's not like the lights look bad they just aren't that much brighter than to subject. Like I wrote it's like the overall contrast of the image was more in keeping in line with an SDR image. I bet they only had SDR monitoring on stage too.

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 09:55 AM, Pat Horridge wrote:

You will often find a straight gain lift won't work as it life areas you don't want above 100nits.
I'd be looking at qualifying the lights and lifting them separately.

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Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

You will often find a straight gain lift won't work as it life areas you don't want above 100nits.
I'd be looking at qualifying the lights and lifting them separately.

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Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

Well there in lies the rub. The footage I have has bright white lights in the background. It's a comic stage performance. Even if I just start with the vlog with no lut the bright lights aren't that much hotter than the subject. Using lift, gamma and gain I can't seem to pull the highlights very far away from the flesh tone level. It would be a pretty extreme notch. My novice understanding of HDR intent matches what you say in that the bulk of the image will remain at 100 nits or less just the specular highlights will shoot up. In my material the image looks exposed and lit in a manner that is more like SDR.

The image isn't bad it just seems to look right when the bright lights in the background are peaking just a bit over 100 nits. I guess that's okay but even the vlog looks a bit clipped/flattened on the bright lights.

On Sat, Nov 30, 2019 at 12:56 AM, Pat Horridge wrote:

John you can't convert any of the camera outputs to HDR directly.
The camera is just capturing a wide dynamic exposure.
But HDR isn't really just a wide dynamic range. It's a fudge.
We want the SDR element to still look as it would in SDR.
An HDR output of a scene on an HDR display needs to look rxacy the same as it would in Rec709 (ignoring wider cor gamut for now)
You are the choosing in the grade how to distribute the HDR highlights over the Nit range above 100.
That has to be a created choice.
In Avid when in 2084 or HLG you waveforms internally are calibrated to show the 100 nit range and then the HDR above that.
It's the grade that distributes the exposure over those areas and then the monitor that shows you how it looks.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

So true JBeck!

The more I look at it, the more I realize that with my (poor) programming skills, I'm better off making DNxHD.mov files and AMA/Link them than trying to make .mxf files directly.
Thanks Bouke for the insight!

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Re: [Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

John you can't convert any of the camera outputs to HDR directly.
The camera is just capturing a wide dynamic exposure.
But HDR isn't really just a wide dynamic range. It's a fudge.
We want the SDR element to still look as it would in SDR.
An HDR output of a scene on an HDR display needs to look rxacy the same as it would in Rec709 (ignoring wider cor gamut for now)
You are the choosing in the grade how to distribute the HDR highlights over the Nit range above 100.
That has to be a created choice.
In Avid when in 2084 or HLG you waveforms internally are calibrated to show the 100 nit range and then the HDR above that.
It's the grade that distributes the exposure over those areas and then the monitor that shows you how it looks.

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Friday, November 29, 2019

[Avid-L2] How to set up HDR Avid Project with Panny Varicam 35 Vlog, Vgamut material?

So what I've learned from my recent thread is that Vlog/Vgamut can be transformed to Rec 709, which I'm very familiar with, and it can be transformed to HDR. I'm trying to sort out how Avid HDR workflow might work although I think ultimately this will need to be finished in Resolve. I'm assuming we will be delivering in DolbyVision to the network. The material was shot AVC-Intra 4:2:2 YUV like we have been receiving for our SDR deliveries. I set up a 4K DCI project 4096_2160 YCbCr 2020 / SMPTE 2084 based on the source being YCbCr.

So here I sit scratching my head. I can add my typical Vlog to Rec 709 either from Panasonic or the one internal to Avid and they both look fine in my Rec 709 world. What I really need is Vlog to SMPTE 2084 levels. I went to panasonic site and downloaded their Post LUTs but they are all looks. I can find the Vlog to Rec 709 on the site but isn't there a transform to take the Vlog/Vgamut to SMPTE 2084 levels so I have a basic starting point like I get in my typical Rec 709 workflows with the same material.

Maybe it's the season but I'm feeling like a real HDR turkey. I know Avid is just getting into HDR but I wanted to at least look at the material in my comfort zone of Avid before jumping into the Resolve side of things. I now have an Aja Hi5 4K plus so I can at least tell my LG OLED 2016 monitor to turn into HDR mode, at least that's what it says on the screen when I switch to HDR SMPTE 2084 on the converter.

I'm also sketchy as to the actual workflow. I'm thinking I color correct with the 2084 levels and the monitor knows to treat them as HDR 2084 levels and displays accordingly. Now when do things actually become DolbyVision? Is it after the Layer One analysis that creates the blanket SDR conversion? I took an HDR class but things were very arm wavy over the specifics of exactly how to setup Resolve in stereo mode to see HDR and SDR on two separate outputs. I'm feeling like I'm getting a "New Format High Colonic."

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.netSo

Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Why would Avid be anything but delighted to have you make a product that
would help people use their editing systems? --J.B.

bouke wrote:
> Creating Avid MXF is not that difficult.
> BUT, you need to use FFmpeg to create DNxHD (or perhaps ProRes, long
> time since I've checked.)
> Then you have assets.
> Those need to be rewrapped into Avid compliant MXF. For that you can
> use open source code from the BBC.
> (BMX lib is the latest from memory, but if you're on mac, you have to
> compile on the machine you want to run it on, you can't take it to
> another machine. (At least, last time I've checked, and that was years
> ago.)
>
> Now, I was threatened by Avid not to sell this, but

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Thanks Bouke!
I'll keep this advice at hand when I register and will make sure I do call it FFmpeg the proper way. ;-)
Pierre

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

In proper FFmpeg user list style:

On 28 Nov 2019, at 21:02, Pierre <ph@cineaste.org> wrote:

It looks like it uses Ffmpeg indeed.

Oh, the name is FFmpeg (double capitals).

You don't want to piss off the guys there. (Trust me.)

Bouke

Edit 'B / VideoToolShed.com
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen
+31 6 21817248

Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Creating Avid MXF is not that difficult.

BUT, you need to use FFmpeg to create DNxHD (or perhaps ProRes, long time since I've checked.)

Then you have assets.

Those need to be rewrapped into Avid compliant MXF. For that you can use open source code from the BBC.

(BMX lib is the latest from memory, but if you're on mac, you have to compile on the machine you want to run it on, you can't take it to another machine. (At least, last time I've checked, and that was years ago.)

Now, I was threatened by Avid not to sell this, but I could if I would, if you would download the BBC code yourself.

If you can script, and you enjoy cursing a couple of evenings, it's fun to do it yourself though!

However, AMA and consolidate is about the same as the BBC code re-wrap to Avid MXF.

The BBC did this to make an ingest machine long time ago. (EVS style thing. I've done the same, based on FFmpeg, possible, even when I don't have a fraction of the resources the BBC has.)

Only reason to do this is if your avid has no time to consolidate AMA linked files. Otherwise it makes no sense.

(An AMA consolidate is also a file copy / meta data adding.)

Another thing (and I'm working on that now), if you relink AMA `files to a (modified / custom) ALE, and then consolidate, the new metadata gets burned in as well.

That might be handy. I'm now working on something that takes AMA files, and can merge / split / add columns, and fill all with custom data (eg CDL info)

It was made for someone who goes from Resolve to Avid, and not everything seemed to work well. (I must admit I did not understand all, I just made the darn thing…)

Oh, if you go onto the FFmpeg user list (high quality feedback, very busy, BBC guys hang there also), stay quiet for a few days to feel the place,

and NEVER EVER top post. (If you don't know what that is, google it. I'm doing it here right now.)

Bouke

Edit 'B / VideoToolShed.com
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen
+31 6 21817248

On 28 Nov 2019, at 21:02, Pierre <ph@cineaste.org> wrote:

Yep that's our famous Bouke!
It looks like it uses Ffmpeg indeed.
But I don't want to venture on his pasture though.
Having said that, it looks like development has stopped since the page says: "Due to licensing negotiations with Avid this product is currently not for sale."

Thursday, November 28, 2019

[Avid-L2] Black Friday is here - something for polishing up the skills.

https://amzn.to/2XUZ57L. Or- something for your coffee table.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Thanksgiving

Happy Turkey day to all as well!

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Re: [Avid-L2] Thanksgiving

It was pretty awful. Too much flour and the pan wasn't hot enough. I made a new batch just to prove I could get it right. I don't want the spirit of my wife's Grandmother Mabel coming to me in my dreams, flicking her finger and saying, "feda." JB

Sent from my iTelephone. Please excuse typos.

> On Nov 28, 2019, at 6:28 PM, Knut A. Helgeland via Groups.Io <kahelia=me.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> I'm still here! :-) I'm sure your lefse was alright.
>
> K
>
>> On 29 Nov 2019, at 01:22, JBeck <jb30343@windstream.net> wrote:
>>
>> Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate. If Knut is still out there, I made lefse, as usual but it didn't turn out very well. Fortunately I get a chance to redeem myself next month. JB
>>
>> Sent from my iTelephone. Please excuse typos.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Thanksgiving

I'm still here! :-) I'm sure your lefse was alright.

K

> On 29 Nov 2019, at 01:22, JBeck <jb30343@windstream.net> wrote:
>
> Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate. If Knut is still out there, I made lefse, as usual but it didn't turn out very well. Fortunately I get a chance to redeem myself next month. JB
>
> Sent from my iTelephone. Please excuse typos.
>
>
>
>
>

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[Avid-L2] Thanksgiving

Happy Thanksgiving to all who celebrate. If Knut is still out there, I made lefse, as usual but it didn't turn out very well. Fortunately I get a chance to redeem myself next month. JB

Sent from my iTelephone. Please excuse typos.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Yep that's our famous Bouke!
It looks like it uses Ffmpeg indeed.
But I don't want to venture on his pasture though.
Having said that, it looks like development has stopped since the page says: "Due to licensing negotiations with Avid this product is currently not for sale."

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

There's this.

https://www.videotoolshed.com/product/avid-mxf-creator/

The man who made is on this list. Maybe he can answer any questions you have

On Thu, Nov 28, 2019 at 11:05 AM Pierre <ph@cineaste.org> wrote:

Thanks Pat,
Indeed it doesn't seem super straight forward to make Media Composer compliant files...

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Thanks Pat,
Indeed it doesn't seem super straight forward to make Media Composer compliant files...

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

There is plenty of info on FFmpeg online re commands etc.
But take care as Avid MXF files have a particular requirement. You would have to fully understand how to ensure the MXF wrapper has the correct metadata.
You would need to have a really good grasp of the MXF format (and I'm not sure FFmpeg will give you the access you need to build that structure)
If you get it wrong you may end up with media that can be edited but can't be linked back to the original camera rushes in the conform.
You would also have to factor in Spanned clips across multiple cards/folders

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[Avid-L2] Ffmpeg to make mxf files

Hello everyone on this shiny new Groups.io site!

I'm teaching myself Ffmpeg as the more I hear about it, the more I think it's pretty amazing and flexible. And I want to be free from a GUI like Handbrake which limit me in my options.
One of the things that interest me about it - but I don't know if it's even possible - would be to use it to convert footage (h264/h265 for instance) directly into Avid media files which I can put directly in my MXF folders without to go through Import of AMA/Link. Is that even possible as each file would need to become one video .mxf and several audio .mxf?
Is there a list somewhere of all the options for DnxHD/DNxHR available with Ffmpeg?

Thanks!
Pierre

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Re: [Avid-L2] "Select to the Right" = a dangerous weapon?

TL;DR - add 'opt' key to the select commands.

I did see this problem, back in the early days of using 'select right'.

I then chose to have 'opt' added to my shortcuts for select to the right (so filler is *always* selected). This was mainly to avoid filler selected under playhead truncating clips if the selection was moved to the left.
I then stopped getting the duplication / truncation issues you are seeing.

I just did a little experiment (screen grab attached) which shows there is a bug (2019.9.0). When the selected clips are moved to the left, sometimes one of the clips gets deselected, then truncated by moving filler. This is not apparent if 'opt' + select right is used.

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Re: [Avid-L2] HDR vs SDR in production?

Yes a wide dynamic cameras output can be made into SDR. The grader just decides how to compress the wide luminance down to 100nits.
Just as an SDR camera would do internally anyway. The advantage of capturing and storing wide dynamic range through to the grade is that the colourist has control over that compression.
However if your wide dynamic range content is recorded SDR (so in camera processing has been applied) you will get poor results when you try and drag those 100nit highlights to 10 20 or 30 times level.
Detail just isn't there. Like trying to make 3D from 2D content. Yes it can be done but it won't look good.
So ensure you have a wide dynamic range sensor. Capture raw or use a log LUT. Ensure exposure (iris) is pushed higher than you'd do for SDR content.

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Wednesday, November 27, 2019

Re: [Avid-L2] HDR vs SDR in production?

Anything can be pretty much turned into HDR. As other mentioned, HDR is just the way video signal is transmitted and displayed, including existing video. You need newer displays because old monitors do not understand the new signal format and cannot get bright enough to display a signal beyond SDR.

HDR is about placing actual nit values to the video signal and assigning a newer gamma curve. Wider color gamut is something added as part of the new standards but technically not required to achieve HDR. You can do HDR in 709.

Of course modern cameras with wide dynamic range and color gamut will create more pleasing HDR images, especially if you compose for it. But 8 stops or 13 stops can be turned to HDR. Log video is not necessary.

DQS

On Nov 27, 2019, at 9:00 PM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

So is it correct to say that anything shot in log can be transformed into either SDR or HDR. That's the jest I'm getting. So what would be at a 100 nits and 100%/700 mV using say an Arri Log C to Rec 709 would get transformed to a level of approx 48%/340 mV on the scope. IIRC with Arri LogC a value of 18% screen grey but I've never quite understood how 18% screen grey is determined. Here's what I found on their site.
"Log C actually is a set of curves for different EI values/ASA ratings. Each curve maps the sensor signal, corresponding to 18% gray scene luminance, to a code value of 400 in a 10 bit signal. A 10 bit signal offers a total code value range of 0 to 1023. The maximum value of the Log C curve depends on the set EI value. The reason is quite simple: When the lens is stopped down, by one stop for example and the EI setting is increased from, say, 800 to 1600, the sensor will capture one stop more highlight information. Since the Log C output represents scene exposure values, the maximum value increases."

My brain begins to start hurting about now. Thanks for the clarification.

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 01:49 PM, Pat Horridge wrote:

John camera have had wide dynamic range for some years now. The limitations of SDR required we manage that dynamic range in camera.
The new log based LUTs allow us to retain that dynamic range in a high bit depth sacrificing bit depth at the top end for more useful bit depth at the lower end.
HDR is just a delivery and display technogy.
So you are capturing wide dynamic range using a LUT or Raw to transport it.
I'm the grade you then limit that to SDR or reformat it into HDR.

Re: [Avid-L2] HDR vs SDR in production?

So is it correct to say that anything shot in log can be transformed into either SDR or HDR. That's the jest I'm getting. So what would be at a 100 nits and 100%/700 mV using say an Arri Log C to Rec 709 would get transformed to a level of approx 48%/340 mV on the scope. IIRC with Arri LogC a value of 18% screen grey but I've never quite understood how 18% screen grey is determined. Here's what I found on their site.
"Log C actually is a set of curves for different EI values/ASA ratings. Each curve maps the sensor signal, corresponding to 18% gray scene luminance, to a code value of 400 in a 10 bit signal. A 10 bit signal offers a total code value range of 0 to 1023. The maximum value of the Log C curve depends on the set EI value. The reason is quite simple: When the lens is stopped down, by one stop for example and the EI setting is increased from, say, 800 to 1600, the sensor will capture one stop more highlight information. Since the Log C output represents scene exposure values, the maximum value increases."

My brain begins to start hurting about now. Thanks for the clarification.

On Wed, Nov 27, 2019 at 01:49 PM, Pat Horridge wrote:

John camera have had wide dynamic range for some years now. The limitations of SDR required we manage that dynamic range in camera.
The new log based LUTs allow us to retain that dynamic range in a high bit depth sacrificing bit depth at the top end for more useful bit depth at the lower end.
HDR is just a delivery and display technogy.
So you are capturing wide dynamic range using a LUT or Raw to transport it.
I'm the grade you then limit that to SDR or reformat it into HDR.

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Re: [Avid-L2] When Find-->Script Text fails to highlight

Looks like this... script is highlighted but you only have the option to close bins. We have 500+ scripts in our project, and 10-12 open at a time, so nice to be able to close them all.

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[Avid-L2] "Select to the Right" = a dangerous weapon?

I'm a big fan of "Select to the right" as it allows you to take a jagged transition and open it up to insert new material. But I keep doing something that is causing a lot of duplicated clips in the timeline. I thought perhaps I was accidentally holding down "option" when moving the clips back to close up the gap, but after a week of being super-careful not to do that, I'm still getting all sorts of extra clips downstream. Seems to happen mostly on lower tracks, where SFX and music typically live, probably because there's more filler in those tracks. Anyone else have this happen and discover what was causing it?

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Re: [Avid-L2] HDR vs SDR in production?

John camera have had wide dynamic range for some years now. The limitations of SDR required we manage that dynamic range in camera.
The new log based LUTs allow us to retain that dynamic range in a high bit depth sacrificing bit depth at the top end for more useful bit depth at the lower end.
HDR is just a delivery and display technogy.
So you are capturing wide dynamic range using a LUT or Raw to transport it.
I'm the grade you then limit that to SDR or reformat it into HDR.

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[Avid-L2] HDR vs SDR in production?

I picked up one of the Aja Hi5 4K Plus sdi to hdmi converters and I can in fact enable HDR. Also I see the my 2016 LG OLD does put up a flag for HLG or when sent 2084 an HDR flag comes up. It's not the DolbyVision logo it just say HDR. I assume this is because the converter just turns on the flag for 2084 but there is no DolbyVision Metadata. I'm still not clear on why I can't get Resolve to spit out the DolbyVision metadata down the HDMI output but it may be that the DNxIO just doesn't support it like the BM Ultrastudio 4K Extreme does.

I've been told by a network/streaming company that when we shoot Vlog, Vgamut it isn't really SDR or HDR. I take this to mean that from the Vlog media it can be transformed into SDR or HDR. I guess my 3 plus decades of Rec 709 SDR are clouding my grasp of this. I would think it would be helpful to know if the material was shot as HDR or SDR to help interpret the video essence when transforming it. If it were RAW sensor data that would be different but doesn't it help to know what type of signal, HDR or SDR, was fed into the Vlog transform to make the media. Given how most of the meat of the video signal in HDR is below 50% in level which is roughly 100 nits which would be 100% in SDR doesn't it matter when transforming the material?

Clearly I'm misunderstanding the steps in the workflow or I'm over/under thinking. Help me Mr. HDR Wizard!!!

Also I don't seem to see an HDR10 or HDR10+ choice on the Aja Hi5. There is HLG and Smpte 2084. IIRC 2084 uses the PQ curve or is that just DolbyVision. Why would I see no choice for HDR10/HDR10+.

I'm trying hard to be Thankful for Turkey day but it feels like I'm trying to decode a Turducken combined with an OKI Dog. ;-)

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

Monday, November 25, 2019

Re: [Avid-L2] Consolidating Music Clips to Nexis increases their size 50% to 300%

There are a couple things taking place.
The smallest block in local storage is likely 4KB. With a Scale Out storage group the smallest block is 512KB and 1024KB with High Performance Storage Group.
With a scale out storage group if the file is 512KB or less it will use 512KB on the disk.
Then the parity protection is added to this.
Unlike ISIS where the parity was taken off the top - it wasn't ever available; a 64TB ISIS 5500 has 44TB of usable space. With NEXIS each workspace can have a different protection type, including unprotected so you will see parity along with the 512K or 1024K block size.

As a rule, 2 Disk Protection on disk is best case is 20% for parity on all large files. For files, less than 512KB size it can be as much as 66%.

NEXIS 2019.2 fixed an issue in Windows where it was reporting the wrong file size; it was rounding the size up to next full stripe size.

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