Saturday, December 12, 2015

[Avid-L2] What happens under the hood between a progressive and interlace render?

 

I posted a week or so ago about how I found on a 29.97P 1080 project when the source footage is 2:3 pulldown rendering an upper track of safe color limit while in progressive mode creates Jiggy Jaggy artifacts in the resulting render.  Unrendered when parked on a split field I see the typical flutter of the split field frame but after rendering it's no longer a flutter but a baked in jiggy jaggy like interlace error but the lines of jiggy jaggy seem to be thicker than the single lines of interlace I would expect from a Psf field structure. 

If I switch to a 59.94I 1080 project I can step through the fields/Psfs and both fields have jiggy jaggy interlacy issues.  If I I render the safe color while in 59.94i 1080 then step through the fields of a split frame they are both clean like typical 2:3 pulldown.  Given Avid deals with progressive material in a Psf manner why don't I still end up with two clean fields when rendered in progressive?  Am I over simplifying the Psf structure under the hood?  I would expect a render to merge the two fields independent of each other into a single progressive frame like I see before I render but these jiggy jaggies get baked into both Psfs.

The result is I have to render in interlace to avoid the jiggy jaggies but I realize any dve type moves or titles with animations will be rendered with interlace motion which is problematic for a true progressive project.  Of course the show will air as interlace but the delivery spec is 29.97P  I would assume the digital delivery department is where they will take issue to the 2:3 cadence.  The simple option is to put duplicate field 100% timewarps on the 2:3 footage but I hate to half the resolution.  Part of my brain says 2:3 is still progressive in the nature of the image but the other part says this isn't truly progressive either.

Curious what others think about this and why the jiggy jaggies get baked in to both Psfs.
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

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Posted by: John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 10:49 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

That's interesting to know that other apps use the comment instead of the actual reel number/tape name.  Now that I've found the 32 character option in Premiere EDLs and the File 32 template I can play along better.  Pointing out the use of the comment as the reel file indicator also helps me play along better.

In my shows the standard DIT practice is to use Resolve to bake out low and high resolution files and the most common approach is to base the tape names on the file name which makes the embedded Arri 8 character tape name problematic.  It would be nice to be able to change the behavior in Premier to base the tape name on the file name but there's always going to be some hoops to jump through.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <oliverpeters@...> wrote :

When Premiere Pro creates an EDL, you get the full clip name as the first EDL comment under each event. Typically this is the information the in-coming application goes by to identify the clip in file-based media. So, in fact, the tape name entry is irrelevant. But, it the case of Avid, they are simply ill-suited for a cross-application, file-based world. So Michaels' blog is your best bet.

- Oliver

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 11:38 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

When Premiere Pro creates an EDL, you get the full clip name as the first EDL comment under each event. Typically this is the information the in-coming application goes by to identify the clip in file-based media. So, in fact, the tape name entry is irrelevant. But, it the case of Avid, they are simply ill-suited for a cross-application, file-based world. So Michaels' blog is your best bet.


- Oliver

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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 5:52 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

Avid AMA or import still do not support embedded REEL when present in a .mov file. The 8 character comes from the embedded with ARRI workflows. 

See Michael Phillips' blog from August 2013: http://24p.com/wordpress/?p=38

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Posted by: "Job ter Burg (L2B)" <Job_L2@terburg.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 2:05 AM 0 comments

Friday, December 11, 2015

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

We can agree to disagree here.  I'm using an edl and the Arri structure of 8 character of the first 4 and the last four are not unique to the individual C001s etc,,,,  In every project I've dealt with there the first four characters are identifying the camera and I guess card or load A001, A002 for A cam etc...  That's all I need to know as to which camera it is so the last 4 characters being the unique Camera ID seem more for an engineering type analysis of which actual camera body it came from.  To me from a post perspective knowing it was the camera A position is more important than the actual camera body.  Not know which C00X clip it is is a much bigger problem and I've had to go through using the time code to determine which clip number.  Now that I know the gotcha I can modify the Premier project but perhaps if Arri gave the user more control over the limit of 8 characters and what they are then this could be avoided.

When I manually enter the tape name in premier with the full clip name the 8 character truncation to the first 8 characters work.  I'm not sure how the hand offs happen on FXP7 and FCP X etc but if all you go by is the default 8 characters Arri puts as the tape name there is no way to distinguish clips from C001, C002 etc...  Those numbers aren't present in the tape name so there is no way that using that tape name will work unless there is only one clip per A001 etc... I would have to say the workflows you have been using are using more than just the tape name to link the clips.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <oliverpeters@...> wrote :

"That makes it impossible to know which Clip to link the file to."

Gosh, it's worked perfectly for me over multiple projects between FCP7 and Baselight. Same with FCPX. There's something wrong in your operational procedure. The big problem here is Media Composer from what I can tell in your description.

"The Camera ID is redundant to the A001 digits when they are properly setup in the camera"

Incorrect. The first numbers are user-determined. The camera ID is unique to the camera. User numbers can be duplicated, but camera IDs can't. Therefore it's a unique identifier.

"In my use of these camera's media I need to know which camera and which clip."

The file name tells you this.

"I'm handed a drive with all the files on it so I never refer to cards"

If these aren't stored in individual folders on the drive corresponding to the cards, then your procedure is wrong.

- Oliver

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 7:38 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

"That makes it impossible to know which Clip to link the file to."


Gosh, it's worked perfectly for me over multiple projects between FCP7 and Baselight. Same with FCPX. There's something wrong in your operational procedure. The big problem here is Media Composer from what I can tell in your description.

"The Camera ID is redundant to the A001 digits when they are properly setup in the camera"

Incorrect. The first numbers are user-determined. The camera ID is unique to the camera. User numbers can be duplicated, but camera IDs can't. Therefore it's a unique identifier.

"In my use of these camera's media I need to know which camera and which clip."

The file name tells you this.

"I'm handed a drive with all the files on it so I never refer to cards"

If these aren't stored in individual folders on the drive corresponding to the cards, then your procedure is wrong.

- Oliver

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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 6:15 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

No it's a poor choice when truncated to the first 4 charachter and the last 4 characters.  Like I posted A001C001, A001C002, A001C003, A001C004 all become A001 and the last 4 camera ID digits.  That makes it impossible to know which Clip to link the file to.  These are all files not tapes.  I know they are trying to fit into the EDL ecosystem but without the clip numbers even if I know the card it came from I can't select the correct clip on the card using the tape name they default to.  The Camera ID is redundant to the A001 digits when they are properly setup in the camera.  What would be better is the Card info and the clip it is on the card.  In my use of these camera's media I need to know which camera and which clip.  I'm handed a drive with all the files on it so I never refer to cards and given the cost of media cards I don't think too many people are keeping all the original cards as the archive.  Perhaps I'm wrong on that but I don't think so.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <oliverpeters@...> wrote :

"Pretty much a poor choice by Alexa because while they make the ending 4 numbers the camera ID they truncate the real file important number of 5 thru 8.  Losing the C001, C002"

No, it's correct. It's a REEL/TAPE number. C001, C002 is the clip identifier. I would content that having a reel number that changes with every file is incorrect, since the reel number can be used to identify the card from which the file came from. And IF you are working with an EDL, not all EDL programs can deal with more than 8 digits for a reel/tape name. It seems that you just need to get a DIT that correctly understands the camera. Apparently the file was renamed after the file left the camera.

- Oliver

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 5:44 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

PS: The manuals are downloadable here:


ARRI Group: Downloads

 



- Oliver

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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 5:38 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

"Pretty much a poor choice by Alexa because while they make the ending 4 numbers the camera ID they truncate the real file important number of 5 thru 8.  Losing the C001, C002"


No, it's correct. It's a REEL/TAPE number. C001, C002 is the clip identifier. I would content that having a reel number that changes with every file is incorrect, since the reel number can be used to identify the card from which the file came from. And IF you are working with an EDL, not all EDL programs can deal with more than 8 digits for a reel/tape name. It seems that you just need to get a DIT that correctly understands the camera. Apparently the file was renamed after the file left the camera.

- Oliver

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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 5:35 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

So this would explain the wrong reel numbers that appear as A001 for the D Camera instead of D001.  The DIT or Camera Operator didn't set the D001 moniker.  Pretty much a poor choice by Alexa because while they make the ending 4 numbers the camera ID they truncate the real file important number of 5 thru 8.  Losing the C001, C002 is more harmfull than lossing the first 4 characters of A001, B001 etc... especially given the last for number identify the cameras uniquily so there is less need for the A001 leading characters.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <oliverpeters@...> wrote :

From the Alexa user manual:

"Metadata is stored in the index.xml file as well as the quicktime file header. Most important for the post production workflow is the tape name, as it will be one of the main image identifiers in an EDL. Even though tape name is not quite a good name for nonlinear media, it is used due to post production naming conventions. Alternatively, reel name is used sometimes.

The tape name of ALEXA files is limited to 8 letters to match the CMX 3600 EDL standard. It consists of the Camera Index, reel counter and the Camera ID.

The tape name of the clip from the previous example would then be: A004R1JL.

Even if the user forgets to assign different camera indices to two cameras on one shoot, the Camera ID guarantees unique tape names.

Currently one time code track is recorded in the Quicktime file."


Right now I'm look at an Alexa file in FCPX. There is no associated XML. This is metadata purely from what's embedded in the file.

The clip name is:

B001C007_110410_R1L7

The Reel name is:

B001R1L7


That's the standard Alexa convention.


- Oliver 


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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 4:29 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

From the Alexa user manual:


"Metadata is stored in the index.xml file as well as the quicktime file header. Most important for the post production workflow is the tape name, as it will be one of the main image identifiers in an EDL. Even though tape name is not quite a good name for nonlinear media, it is used due to post production naming conventions. Alternatively, reel name is used sometimes.

The tape name of ALEXA files is limited to 8 letters to match the CMX 3600 EDL standard. It consists of the Camera Index, reel counter and the Camera ID.

The tape name of the clip from the previous example would then be: A004R1JL.

Even if the user forgets to assign different camera indices to two cameras on one shoot, the Camera ID guarantees unique tape names.

Currently one time code track is recorded in the Quicktime file."


Right now I'm look at an Alexa file in FCPX. There is no associated XML. This is metadata purely from what's embedded in the file.

The clip name is:

B001C007_110410_R1L7

The Reel name is:

B001R1L7


That's the standard Alexa convention.


- Oliver 


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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 4:17 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

I doubt it's embedded. Maybe it's that way in the accompanying XML/ALE you get in the Alexa card folder, but I'm pretty sure not embedded into the media.

On Fri, Dec 11, 2015 at 6:01 PM, oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

FWIW - The tape names and the way they appear is embedded from the camera. It's been that way since Alexas launched and the tape name appears this way in FCP7, as well.


- Oliver


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Posted by: Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 3:15 PM 0 comments

[Avid-L2] Re: Some Success taking Premier Project into Avid

 

FWIW - The tape names and the way they appear is embedded from the camera. It's been that way since Alexas launched and the tape name appears this way in FCP7, as well.


- Oliver

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Posted by: oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com
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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 3:01 PM 0 comments
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