Avid's Universal Mastering was only for tape based outputs, and you
still needed a VTR that was operating at whichever standard you were
outputting to.
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Friday, April 15, 2022
Thursday, April 14, 2022
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
I second hardware conversion. Is Avid's Universal Mastering still available?
Cheers, Luca
Sent from my dumbphone.
Cheers, Luca
Sent from my dumbphone.
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
I've had issues delivering anything with split frames because the streaming side can't handle it. Nat Geo for example would not accept 2:3 and wanted 2:2:2:4. Even though it diminishes the quality of motion that's what they made me do back in 2015. I doubt they would accept 2:3:3:2 for the same split frame logic. I had to take 2:3 film clips and motion adapt to single field to progressive for them. Halving the resolution didn't bother them but split frames did. Other networks are different and I've only been delivering 23.976 for a long time too.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Dave Hogan wrote:
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On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 02:53 PM, Dave Hogan wrote:
I hesitate to jump in on this lively discussion, but my experience has been:
1) Since you are “down" converting from a higher frame rate to a lower one, the artifacting in AVID with motion adapters will be minimal. More likely will be the need to watch out for a lack of smoothness in long slow camera moves (frame dropping).
2) The other issue is wether your source footage is 29.97p or interlaced. A large part of the conversion could be de-interlacing. I have been truly stunned at how well Resolve Studio (NOT available in free version of Resolve) deals with de-interlacing 29.97i footage.
3) 23.98 is the de-facto standard in US post community for all the major network shows and tv spots I have worked on for many years. As mentioned previously, nobody broadcasts in 23.98, but it’s very easy to add cadence (2:3:3:2 has become popular, over the old 2:3:2:3 of the “olden days”, apparently it generates fewer interlaced frames in sets that playback frames, not fields). Blu-Ray and DVD manufacturers will routinely master in 23:98 because the compression quality is better with fewer frames, and the DVD/Blu-Ray player add field cadence in th up-convert to 29.97.
4) Nobody is more covetous of their power than a standards engineer or QC checker at a network or streaming company. I have had some of the most idiotic rejections from Amazon that defy logic. Superior technical knowledge has NEVER helped me there.
Good luck John,
Dave Hogan
Burbank, CA
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
I've found with Avid Fluid Motion if I mixdown a series of cuts into a single clip and apply fluid motion at 100% the cut points turn into fluid morphs more or less. It's an interesting effect but would a similar optical flow create strange transitional effects on cuts? If so I would assume it would be better to have Resolve do the optical flow on each clip. Clearly teranex and other converts must know not to morph the cut points but I don't know how that would work in Resolve.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 10:50 AM, Mark Spano wrote:
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On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 10:50 AM, Mark Spano wrote:
David - you are correct about graphic text - best to leave that off during this conversion. However for the motion compensation on Alchemist, you'd be surprised. With the version I have (Grass Valley xFile Client / Alchemist File v4) these conversions are almost completely artifact free. I did an entire season of Belgravia and War Of The Worlds for Epix - full episodes that were progressive, sure, but converting from 25p to 23.976p and they were spotless. Before I saw this, I could not have been convinced that motion compensated conversion like this would work, and every consult I said slow it down and pitch-correct.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:56 PM David Ross <speckydave@gmail.com> wrote:My experience of "Motion Compensated" Alchemist conversions is that you will be guaranteed to have artifacts, certainly if the video includes any text/graphics or images that rotate (e.g. the wheels on a car). Obviously, you can switch the Motion Compensation off, but for a conversion to progressive output like this you'll just be stuck with frame blending instead.Cheers,David
On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 09:33, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Note they Resolve Studio 17 has "Neural AI" used for things like deinterlacing, which it does ridiculously well. Buried deep in the settings. I suspect they have neural speed change of some sort.
Jeff Kreines
Kinetta
jeff@kinetta.com
kinetta.com
Sent from iPhone.
On Apr 14, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Jay Mahavier via groups.io <jay_mahavier=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:
The best 23.97i to 23.976p that I have personally done is lengthy and labor intensive, but it does end up looking good, in my opinion. Now it's been a while since I've done this, so some of the tools I'm going to list will be outdated, but I'm sure you can figure out a newer equivalent.The basic steps are…1-extract each field to it's own frame with line interpolation (I did this on FCP7 with blink and something else). So now you have basically 60fps. I would exported to TIFF or DPX and would make an image sequence.2-so now you have these image sequences that are basically 60p. Now this needs to be doubled with a slowmo effect with interpolation again (I would do this either in a Flame or with FCP7 again). Again making a image sequence that is the equivalent to 120p.3-then using a line command I would copy just the files that had frame numbers ending in 0 and 5 to a new folder.4-then I would use a rename tool, like A Better Finder Rename, to rename the files so they are sequential.5-then I would convert that image sequence into a new QT using QTpro.I'm sure a lot of people will say all that shit is just crazy and it's a terrible idea blah blah blah. But whatever. It worked great 15~20 years ago. Better than I expected.JayOn Apr 14, 2022, at 12:01 AM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:A friend is starting a series that was shot at 29.97, not sure if it's progressive or 59.94 interlace, and the shows are supposed to be delivered in 23.976. He'll be working in Resolve and thinks the Optical Flow in Resolve will do a decent conversion but he's not sure. I know Avid's Fluid Motion conversion is prone to artifacts that can be very problematic. Does Optical Flow in Resolve have similar issues? I'm not sure what the under the hood mechanics are for 29.97 media in a Resolve 23.976 project. I'm not that versed in Resolve's motion adapter specifics. Are there choices like in Avid's motion adapters to control how the motion is adapted?I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Any suggestions besides flogging production for shooting 29.97? ;-)John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Re: Amazon. IF you can even speak to someone...
________________________
Greg Huson
Secret Headquarters, Inc
GK Huson, LLC
Greg (at) SecretHQ.com
www.SecretHQ.com
> On Apr 14, 2022, at 14:53, Dave Hogan via groups.io <mactvman=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> I hesitate to jump in on this lively discussion, but my experience has been:
>
> 1) Since you are "down" converting from a higher frame rate to a lower one, the artifacting in AVID with motion adapters will be minimal. More likely will be the need to watch out for a lack of smoothness in long slow camera moves (frame dropping).
>
> 2) The other issue is wether your source footage is 29.97p or interlaced. A large part of the conversion could be de-interlacing. I have been truly stunned at how well Resolve Studio (NOT available in free version of Resolve) deals with de-interlacing 29.97i footage.
>
> 3) 23.98 is the de-facto standard in US post community for all the major network shows and tv spots I have worked on for many years. As mentioned previously, nobody broadcasts in 23.98, but it's very easy to add cadence (2:3:3:2 has become popular, over the old 2:3:2:3 of the "olden days", apparently it generates fewer interlaced frames in sets that playback frames, not fields). Blu-Ray and DVD manufacturers will routinely master in 23:98 because the compression quality is better with fewer frames, and the DVD/Blu-Ray player add field cadence in th up-convert to 29.97.
>
> 4) Nobody is more covetous of their power than a standards engineer or QC checker at a network or streaming company. I have had some of the most idiotic rejections from Amazon that defy logic. Superior technical knowledge has NEVER helped me there.
>
> Good luck John,
>
> Dave Hogan
> Burbank, CA
>
>
>
>
________________________
Greg Huson
Secret Headquarters, Inc
GK Huson, LLC
Greg (at) SecretHQ.com
www.SecretHQ.com
> On Apr 14, 2022, at 14:53, Dave Hogan via groups.io <mactvman=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:
>
> I hesitate to jump in on this lively discussion, but my experience has been:
>
> 1) Since you are "down" converting from a higher frame rate to a lower one, the artifacting in AVID with motion adapters will be minimal. More likely will be the need to watch out for a lack of smoothness in long slow camera moves (frame dropping).
>
> 2) The other issue is wether your source footage is 29.97p or interlaced. A large part of the conversion could be de-interlacing. I have been truly stunned at how well Resolve Studio (NOT available in free version of Resolve) deals with de-interlacing 29.97i footage.
>
> 3) 23.98 is the de-facto standard in US post community for all the major network shows and tv spots I have worked on for many years. As mentioned previously, nobody broadcasts in 23.98, but it's very easy to add cadence (2:3:3:2 has become popular, over the old 2:3:2:3 of the "olden days", apparently it generates fewer interlaced frames in sets that playback frames, not fields). Blu-Ray and DVD manufacturers will routinely master in 23:98 because the compression quality is better with fewer frames, and the DVD/Blu-Ray player add field cadence in th up-convert to 29.97.
>
> 4) Nobody is more covetous of their power than a standards engineer or QC checker at a network or streaming company. I have had some of the most idiotic rejections from Amazon that defy logic. Superior technical knowledge has NEVER helped me there.
>
> Good luck John,
>
> Dave Hogan
> Burbank, CA
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
I hesitate to jump in on this lively discussion, but my experience has been:
1) Since you are "down" converting from a higher frame rate to a lower one, the artifacting in AVID with motion adapters will be minimal. More likely will be the need to watch out for a lack of smoothness in long slow camera moves (frame dropping).
2) The other issue is wether your source footage is 29.97p or interlaced. A large part of the conversion could be de-interlacing. I have been truly stunned at how well Resolve Studio (NOT available in free version of Resolve) deals with de-interlacing 29.97i footage.
3) 23.98 is the de-facto standard in US post community for all the major network shows and tv spots I have worked on for many years. As mentioned previously, nobody broadcasts in 23.98, but it's very easy to add cadence (2:3:3:2 has become popular, over the old 2:3:2:3 of the "olden days", apparently it generates fewer interlaced frames in sets that playback frames, not fields). Blu-Ray and DVD manufacturers will routinely master in 23:98 because the compression quality is better with fewer frames, and the DVD/Blu-Ray player add field cadence in th up-convert to 29.97.
4) Nobody is more covetous of their power than a standards engineer or QC checker at a network or streaming company. I have had some of the most idiotic rejections from Amazon that defy logic. Superior technical knowledge has NEVER helped me there.
Good luck John,
Dave Hogan
Burbank, CA
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1) Since you are "down" converting from a higher frame rate to a lower one, the artifacting in AVID with motion adapters will be minimal. More likely will be the need to watch out for a lack of smoothness in long slow camera moves (frame dropping).
2) The other issue is wether your source footage is 29.97p or interlaced. A large part of the conversion could be de-interlacing. I have been truly stunned at how well Resolve Studio (NOT available in free version of Resolve) deals with de-interlacing 29.97i footage.
3) 23.98 is the de-facto standard in US post community for all the major network shows and tv spots I have worked on for many years. As mentioned previously, nobody broadcasts in 23.98, but it's very easy to add cadence (2:3:3:2 has become popular, over the old 2:3:2:3 of the "olden days", apparently it generates fewer interlaced frames in sets that playback frames, not fields). Blu-Ray and DVD manufacturers will routinely master in 23:98 because the compression quality is better with fewer frames, and the DVD/Blu-Ray player add field cadence in th up-convert to 29.97.
4) Nobody is more covetous of their power than a standards engineer or QC checker at a network or streaming company. I have had some of the most idiotic rejections from Amazon that defy logic. Superior technical knowledge has NEVER helped me there.
Good luck John,
Dave Hogan
Burbank, CA
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
>
> But masters are almost always preferred and accepted at the native edit/finishing rate, which is primarily 23.976p.
Sure, a master should be provided in the finishing format, but I can see no circumstance where forcing the OP to finish at 24 makes any sense at all. You are telling the editor to decimate the 30fps original to 24, a horrible loss of quality no matter how you do it, in order to deliver a master that will, without question, be deliver at 59.94hz (or 50hz). Makes no sense.
Make the case to deliver 30fps. Don't destroy your show without a fight.
Cheers,
tod
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> But masters are almost always preferred and accepted at the native edit/finishing rate, which is primarily 23.976p.
Sure, a master should be provided in the finishing format, but I can see no circumstance where forcing the OP to finish at 24 makes any sense at all. You are telling the editor to decimate the 30fps original to 24, a horrible loss of quality no matter how you do it, in order to deliver a master that will, without question, be deliver at 59.94hz (or 50hz). Makes no sense.
Make the case to deliver 30fps. Don't destroy your show without a fight.
Cheers,
tod
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
SDI or hdmi - not file-based. You would need to play your shots (or entire file) 'through' the box. I generally put on a tc window during or-roll, the just 'wild capture' to ProRes HQ using my little blackmagic video assist recorder. Super easy.
________________________
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Greg (at) SecretHQ.com
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On Apr 14, 2022, at 14:03, John Moore via groups.io <bigfish=pacbell.net@groups.io> wrote:
Does your Teranex only do SDI or does it handle files too. I've never operated one.
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Does your Teranex only do SDI or does it handle files too. I've never operated one.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Broadcast standard is an old standard (ATSC), so the head end is stuck sending out 720/59.94p or 1080/29.97i. But masters are almost always preferred and accepted at the native edit/finishing rate, which is primarily 23.976p.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 2:26 PM todhop <hoplist@hillmanncarr.com> wrote:
On Apr 14, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.
While it's fair to say that much high end original production is 24fps, that does not carry to delivery. The reason 24fps is a preferred camera original standard is because it can be delivered at 24, 30, 50, or 60 via simple pulldown.
Netflix excepts "Frame Rates 23.976 / 24 / 25 / 29.97 / 30 / 50 / 59.94 / 60"
PBS standard is 59.94
Cheers,
tod
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
On Apr 14, 2022, at 9:18 AM, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.
While it's fair to say that much high end original production is 24fps, that does not carry to delivery. The reason 24fps is a preferred camera original standard is because it can be delivered at 24, 30, 50, or 60 via simple pulldown.
Netflix excepts "Frame Rates 23.976 / 24 / 25 / 29.97 / 30 / 50 / 59.94 / 60"
PBS standard is 59.94
Cheers,
tod
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>
> Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.
While it's fair to say that much high end original production is 24fps, that does not carry to delivery. The reason 24fps is a preferred camera original standard is because it can be delivered at 24, 30, 50, or 60 via simple pulldown.
Netflix excepts "Frame Rates 23.976 / 24 / 25 / 29.97 / 30 / 50 / 59.94 / 60"
PBS standard is 59.94
Cheers,
tod
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
David - you are correct about graphic text - best to leave that off during this conversion. However for the motion compensation on Alchemist, you'd be surprised. With the version I have (Grass Valley xFile Client / Alchemist File v4) these conversions are almost completely artifact free. I did an entire season of Belgravia and War Of The Worlds for Epix - full episodes that were progressive, sure, but converting from 25p to 23.976p and they were spotless. Before I saw this, I could not have been convinced that motion compensated conversion like this would work, and every consult I said slow it down and pitch-correct.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 12:56 PM David Ross <speckydave@gmail.com> wrote:
My experience of "Motion Compensated" Alchemist conversions is that you will be guaranteed to have artifacts, certainly if the video includes any text/graphics or images that rotate (e.g. the wheels on a car). Obviously, you can switch the Motion Compensation off, but for a conversion to progressive output like this you'll just be stuck with frame blending instead.Cheers,DavidOn Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 09:33, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
My experience of "Motion Compensated" Alchemist conversions is that you will be guaranteed to have artifacts, certainly if the video includes any text/graphics or images that rotate (e.g. the wheels on a car). Obviously, you can switch the Motion Compensation off, but for a conversion to progressive output like this you'll just be stuck with frame blending instead.
Cheers,
David
On Thu, 14 Apr 2022 at 09:33, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:
If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Sorry, that first sentence should be
The best 29.97i to 23.976p that I have persona done…
Bad bad typo.
Jay
On Apr 14, 2022, at 9:58 AM, Jay Mahavier via groups.io <jay_mahavier=icloud.com@groups.io> wrote:The best 23.97i to 23.976p that I have personally done is lengthy and labor intensive, but it does end up looking good, in my opinion. Now it's been a while since I've done this, so some of the tools I'm going to list will be outdated, but I'm sure you can figure out a newer equivalent.The basic steps are…1-extract each field to it's own frame with line interpolation (I did this on FCP7 with blink and something else). So now you have basically 60fps. I would exported to TIFF or DPX and would make an image sequence.2-so now you have these image sequences that are basically 60p. Now this needs to be doubled with a slowmo effect with interpolation again (I would do this either in a Flame or with FCP7 again). Again making a image sequence that is the equivalent to 120p.3-then using a line command I would copy just the files that had frame numbers ending in 0 and 5 to a new folder.4-then I would use a rename tool, like A Better Finder Rename, to rename the files so they are sequential.5-then I would convert that image sequence into a new QT using QTpro.I'm sure a lot of people will say all that shit is just crazy and it's a terrible idea blah blah blah. But whatever. It worked great 15~20 years ago. Better than I expected.JayOn Apr 14, 2022, at 12:01 AM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:A friend is starting a series that was shot at 29.97, not sure if it's progressive or 59.94 interlace, and the shows are supposed to be delivered in 23.976. He'll be working in Resolve and thinks the Optical Flow in Resolve will do a decent conversion but he's not sure. I know Avid's Fluid Motion conversion is prone to artifacts that can be very problematic. Does Optical Flow in Resolve have similar issues? I'm not sure what the under the hood mechanics are for 29.97 media in a Resolve 23.976 project. I'm not that versed in Resolve's motion adapter specifics. Are there choices like in Avid's motion adapters to control how the motion is adapted?I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Any suggestions besides flogging production for shooting 29.97? ;-)John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
What even are you talking about? Your words sound like they live in SD world, while we've all moved on to HD. John's spec is 23.976p. 29.97 is the source footage. He's asking how best to get 29.97 to 23.976.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 11:50 AM bouke <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:
Mark,Name 1 (just ONE) player that does NOT support 29.97.I know that 99% of still in use CRT's / first generation flatscreens do NOT support 23.976.Mono / B&W compatible is still required here, I bet it's the same over there. (Not that i'm willing to take you on on the subect.)Then, do your homework and figure out what part of the world I live in, and while you're at it, forget I exist, I'll try to do the same for you.BoukeOn 14 Apr 2022, at 15:18, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:Bouke you're hilarious. First, he says spec demands delivery at 23.976p. Then your other laughable comment about "the only reason for 23.976p" - what part of the earth do you live? Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.John - where I work I use an Alchemist PhC+ for those types of conversions. Resolve's Optical Flow and Speed Warp AI can be great, and also murder on CPU. And many times you're still dealing with artifacting like FluidMotion, so it's not a good tack to take going that route for a whole show.On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:05 AM bouke <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:42, Bouke (Edit 'B) <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Oh, I forgot:Forget 23.976The ONLY reason for 23.976p is if you want to go to 29.97i (with pulldown) or to 25p (speeded up)So, ask to deliver both 29.97p (de-interlaced if the output is web as well as 'standard' broadcast), 29.97i and 25p (or I, depending on the standards conversion used.)An expensive standard converter (not so expensive anymore since BM took over) can do 29.97i to 25 'something' very well. Adding an extra step trough 23.976 makes no sense at all.Bouke / edit 'Bvideotoolshed.com
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Mark,
Name 1 (just ONE) player that does NOT support 29.97.
I know that 99% of still in use CRT's / first generation flatscreens do NOT support 23.976.
Mono / B&W compatible is still required here, I bet it's the same over there. (Not that i'm willing to take you on on the subect.)
Then, do your homework and figure out what part of the world I live in, and while you're at it, forget I exist, I'll try to do the same for you.
Bouke
On 14 Apr 2022, at 15:18, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:Bouke you're hilarious. First, he says spec demands delivery at 23.976p. Then your other laughable comment about "the only reason for 23.976p" - what part of the earth do you live? Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.John - where I work I use an Alchemist PhC+ for those types of conversions. Resolve's Optical Flow and Speed Warp AI can be great, and also murder on CPU. And many times you're still dealing with artifacting like FluidMotion, so it's not a good tack to take going that route for a whole show.On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:05 AM bouke <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:42, Bouke (Edit 'B) <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Oh, I forgot:Forget 23.976The ONLY reason for 23.976p is if you want to go to 29.97i (with pulldown) or to 25p (speeded up)So, ask to deliver both 29.97p (de-interlaced if the output is web as well as 'standard' broadcast), 29.97i and 25p (or I, depending on the standards conversion used.)An expensive standard converter (not so expensive anymore since BM took over) can do 29.97i to 25 'something' very well. Adding an extra step trough 23.976 makes no sense at all.Bouke / edit 'Bvideotoolshed.com
Van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen, the Netherlands
+31 6 21817248
If you want to send me large files, please use:
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
The best 23.97i to 23.976p that I have personally done is lengthy and labor intensive, but it does end up looking good, in my opinion. Now it's been a while since I've done this, so some of the tools I'm going to list will be outdated, but I'm sure you can figure out a newer equivalent.
The basic steps are…
1-extract each field to it's own frame with line interpolation (I did this on FCP7 with blink and something else). So now you have basically 60fps. I would exported to TIFF or DPX and would make an image sequence.
2-so now you have these image sequences that are basically 60p. Now this needs to be doubled with a slowmo effect with interpolation again (I would do this either in a Flame or with FCP7 again). Again making a image sequence that is the equivalent to 120p.
3-then using a line command I would copy just the files that had frame numbers ending in 0 and 5 to a new folder.
4-then I would use a rename tool, like A Better Finder Rename, to rename the files so they are sequential.
5-then I would convert that image sequence into a new QT using QTpro.
I'm sure a lot of people will say all that shit is just crazy and it's a terrible idea blah blah blah. But whatever. It worked great 15~20 years ago. Better than I expected.
Jay
On Apr 14, 2022, at 12:01 AM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:A friend is starting a series that was shot at 29.97, not sure if it's progressive or 59.94 interlace, and the shows are supposed to be delivered in 23.976. He'll be working in Resolve and thinks the Optical Flow in Resolve will do a decent conversion but he's not sure. I know Avid's Fluid Motion conversion is prone to artifacts that can be very problematic. Does Optical Flow in Resolve have similar issues? I'm not sure what the under the hood mechanics are for 29.97 media in a Resolve 23.976 project. I'm not that versed in Resolve's motion adapter specifics. Are there choices like in Avid's motion adapters to control how the motion is adapted?I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Any suggestions besides flogging production for shooting 29.97? ;-)John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Optical flow is pretty good, but still can add artifacts. Some shots it will just make a mess of, especially 2997 to 2398.
I still have my teranex if you want to try a hardware solution.
________________________
Greg Huson Secret Headquarters, Inc
GK Huson, LLC
Greg (at) SecretHQ.com
www.SecretHQ.com
On Apr 14, 2022, at 04:59, Agustin Goya | Wancamp via groups.io <agustingoya=gmail.com@groups.io> wrote:
I have the same issue but just for a few interviews. We are now in the process of testing Pixelstrings from Cinnafilm (https://cinnafilm.com/product/pixelstrings/) which costs ~$2 per minute for this type of convertion in HD resolution.Maybe your friend can edit everything at 29.97 and then convert at the end.HTH.AgustÃn
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 05:33 Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:
If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Bouke you're hilarious. First, he says spec demands delivery at 23.976p. Then your other laughable comment about "the only reason for 23.976p" - what part of the earth do you live? Almost everything in the US is 23.976p, including all the shows and movies on your favorite streaming platforms.
John - where I work I use an Alchemist PhC+ for those types of conversions. Resolve's Optical Flow and Speed Warp AI can be great, and also murder on CPU. And many times you're still dealing with artifacting like FluidMotion, so it's not a good tack to take going that route for a whole show.
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022 at 8:05 AM bouke <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:
On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:42, Bouke (Edit 'B) <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.Oh, I forgot:Forget 23.976The ONLY reason for 23.976p is if you want to go to 29.97i (with pulldown) or to 25p (speeded up)So, ask to deliver both 29.97p (de-interlaced if the output is web as well as 'standard' broadcast), 29.97i and 25p (or I, depending on the standards conversion used.)An expensive standard converter (not so expensive anymore since BM took over) can do 29.97i to 25 'something' very well. Adding an extra step trough 23.976 makes no sense at all.Bouke / edit 'Bvideotoolshed.com
Van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen, the Netherlands
+31 6 21817248
If you want to send me large files, please use:
https://videotoolshed.wetransfer.com/
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:42, Bouke (Edit 'B) <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.
Oh, I forgot:
Forget 23.976
The ONLY reason for 23.976p is if you want to go to 29.97i (with pulldown) or to 25p (speeded up)
So, ask to deliver both 29.97p (de-interlaced if the output is web as well as 'standard' broadcast), 29.97i and 25p (or I, depending on the standards conversion used.)
An expensive standard converter (not so expensive anymore since BM took over) can do 29.97i to 25 'something' very well. Adding an extra step trough 23.976 makes no sense at all.
Bouke / edit 'B
videotoolshed.com
Van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen, the Netherlands
+31 6 21817248
If you want to send me large files, please use:
https://videotoolshed.wetransfer.com/
Van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS Nijmegen, the Netherlands
+31 6 21817248
If you want to send me large files, please use:
https://videotoolshed.wetransfer.com/
Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
I have the same issue but just for a few interviews. We are now in the process of testing Pixelstrings from Cinnafilm (https://cinnafilm.com/product/pixelstrings/) which costs ~$2 per minute for this type of convertion in HD resolution.
Maybe your friend can edit everything at 29.97 and then convert at the end.
HTH.
AgustÃn
On Thu, Apr 14, 2022, 05:33 Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:
If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
If you want the best results, guaranteed to be artifact free, then this is definitely the best route. It makes for an easy workflow too - you only do the one conversion when everything is finished.
Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Cheers,
Tony
Sent by magic over t'interweb
> On 14 Apr 2022, at 09:27, editbruboy <bruno@bmansi.co.uk> wrote:
>
> I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter (Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
Feels like you've been handed a poison chalice!
Not had much experience with Resolve's Motion Adaptor's, but you will
definitely get artefacts with Avid's Fluid Motion.
Having to use this effect for all your material is going to be a
rendering nightmare. You can (according to Avid) adjust the
parameters/vectors of Fluid Motion. Have a look at the Effects Guide
(page 187). I tried this some years ago and couldn't really get it to
work, but this might have been a bug in my version.
I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter
(Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at
it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
Bruno
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Not had much experience with Resolve's Motion Adaptor's, but you will
definitely get artefacts with Avid's Fluid Motion.
Having to use this effect for all your material is going to be a
rendering nightmare. You can (according to Avid) adjust the
parameters/vectors of Fluid Motion. Have a look at the Effects Guide
(page 187). I tried this some years ago and couldn't really get it to
work, but this might have been a bug in my version.
I would try and investigate if some sort of hardware standards converter
(Alchemist?) might be a better solution. So you complete your project at
it's native frame rate and get it converted afterwards.
Bruno
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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
A friend is starting a series that was shot at 29.97, not sure if it's progressive or 59.94 interlace,
Do NOT mix framerate with interlace. I means that a frame is interlaced, thus 29.97 fps interlaced is still called 29.97, but with an 'i' addition.
and the shows are supposed to be delivered in 23.976. He'll be working in Resolve and thinks the Optical Flow in Resolve will do a decent conversion but he's not sure. I know Avid's Fluid Motion conversion is prone to artifacts that can be very problematic. Does Optical Flow in Resolve have similar issues? I'm not sure what the under the hood mechanics are for 29.97 media in a Resolve 23.976 project. I'm not that versed in Resolve's motion adapter specifics. Are there choices like in Avid's motion adapters to control how the motion is adapted?
I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.
Of course this will be the best option.
Any suggestions besides flogging production for shooting 29.97? ;-)
Be happy for the extra work / turnover
Bouke
Wednesday, April 13, 2022
[Avid-L2] 29.97 to 23.976 for a Series?
A friend is starting a series that was shot at 29.97, not sure if it's progressive or 59.94 interlace, and the shows are supposed to be delivered in 23.976. He'll be working in Resolve and thinks the Optical Flow in Resolve will do a decent conversion but he's not sure. I know Avid's Fluid Motion conversion is prone to artifacts that can be very problematic. Does Optical Flow in Resolve have similar issues? I'm not sure what the under the hood mechanics are for 29.97 media in a Resolve 23.976 project. I'm not that versed in Resolve's motion adapter specifics. Are there choices like in Avid's motion adapters to control how the motion is adapted?
I'm suggesting to my friend he ask for an exemption to deliver in native frame rate but I don't know who the client or network/streamer is.
Any suggestions besides flogging production for shooting 29.97? ;-)
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
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