Saturday, March 31, 2012

[Avid-L2] Re: Auto-color balance

 

Poorly, sorry couldn't resist. ;-0

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dan McCabe <danlist@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
> correction demo this week and it was never really explained.
>

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[Avid-L2] Beta-SP BVW-70/75 passing pluge?

 

I remember back in the world of composite linear bays that when recording to BetaSp the video was usually clipped at 0IRE when recorded.  You could adjust the TBC controls to playback super black levels but if you had a perfectly calibrated bay and recorded a feed that went below 0 upon playback it would clip at 0.  I was told there was an adjustment in the deck that could be set to allow negative black like -7 IRE but if you did that then to top end of the signal would be clipped at 100 IRE.  Sort of a choice of where to set the dynamic range.  Does this make sense?  I'm pretty sure that was/is the case.  I ask because today I spot checked some out of house dubbs to betasp and the levels playing back on my digibeta were spot on and I was really impressed.  Not only did the video show pluge perfectly but all the vector dots were in the boxes very centered and even the 4 channels of audio were at -20 which was really amazing to me.  It was a treat
to see a facility that actually had a well aligned signal path and beta-sp deck for a change.  Now that I think about it pluge is all above 0IRE anyways so it shouldn't get clipped but man my hats off to the dub house engineers.  So you don't need firewire to get a proper signal or sdi if it's in the right hands.

John Moore

Barking Trout Productions

Studio City, CA

bigfish@pacbell.net

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[Avid-L2] Re: QT Pro exporting to USB Rugged Mini?

 

Upon further investigation I made a QT to the internal drive and the activity monitor showed data write speeds at around 37-40 MB/sec and the file was created much faster. Sure that's a no brainer now that I look at it but once the 60 gig file was complete it then takes almost an hour just to transfer to the LaCie Rugged Mini so there is a serious performance hit when exporting directly to the mini so it would seem. I don't know why we aren't just sending raw drives as I'm sure those are acceptable to the network folks. They choose the mini's because they don't require a power supply but no one thought about all the time lost to slow transfer times. Oh well they will make pretty rugged orange coasters in the end. ;-(

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John Moore <bigfish@...> wrote:
>
> I'm taking a Avid QT ref SD 1:1 mxf file with 4 tracks of audio and using QT Pro to export a self contained QT directly to a LaCie Rugged Mini.  The Mini is USB buss powered with a USB to internal connection cable with two mini and micro usb connectors mounted together side by side.  In activity monitor it shows Data written/sec bouncing between 14.5 to 16.38 MB.  I never really look at these activity monitor parameters so I don't have a feel for what they should or could be.  Could anyone tell me if I would be better off creating the QT self contained movie to the internal drive and then copying the file to the Rugged Mini or is the throughput of the USB connected LaCie Rugged Mini not a factor in the time QT Pro takes to export the file.  In other words does exporting directly to the LaCie mini slow down QT Pro's processing of the file because it's having to wait for the LaCie to write the data before moving on to more processing.
>
> John Moore
>
> Barking Trout Productions
>
> Studio City, CA
>
> bigfish@...
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Auto-color balance

 

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 8:12 PM, Dan McCabe <danlist@bestmail.us> wrote:

> Part of what was surprising was that the repeated use of
> auto color in Curves, hitting it two or three times in a row, led
> to slightly different results.
>
That's usually the result of the tool re-balancing not off the source image
but the just-balanced image.

If you use the Auto Balance tool enough you start to figure out when it'll
work before hitting the button.

General rule of thumb: If the brightest parts of the image need to be white
but aren't, and if the darkest parts of the image need to be black but
aren't... that's when you have a better than average chance of auto-balance
tools actually working. (and specular highlights don't count)

- -
Patrick inhofer
Colorist / Finisher / Owner, Fini.tv
Trainer, Tao Of Color.com
*Subscribe to my free weekly **Color Grading
Newsletter<http://www.taoofcolor.com/newsletter>
!*

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Tapeless Reality Check - clip names "00000".

>
> I was recently working on a 2-camera shoot using C300 cameras. A and B
> cameras generated the same filenames, using their *default settings*
>


File based camera operators should learn how to create settings in their
cameras which give particular names, ie camera name, date, scene, act,
location...but then that is not as quick as scribbling on the side of a
tape case a nearly useless digit.

Barnaby
323.401.8642


On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 2:34 PM, Anna Hovhannessian <
annahovhannessian@yahoo.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Sorry, I completely missed the duplicate naming problem which I realize
> was the whole point of this.
>
> Errr....
>
>
> On Mar 31, 2012, at 12:35 PM, "Robert" <robertsalsbury@me.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Anna Hovhannessian <annahovhannessian@...>
> wrote:
> > >
> > > If you're nervous about renaming clips, The other option is to make
> stringouts.
> > >
> > > You can stringout each interview in a sequence. Makes it easier
> anyway. Radio cuts are faster, scenes make more sense, finding timecode
> easier.
> > >
> > > Same thing with Broll footage.
> > >
> > > I rarely look at the clips anyway, i just go straight to the strings.
> > >
> > > The only time I go to the footage bin is if I need to look at the
> metadata for some reason or troubleshoot something.
> > >
> >
> > I'm already working that way, the issue though is that when you cut from
> a string out reel into your timeline, you have nonsense info in this case
> as the underlying clip names are useless.
> >
> > Thanks to everyone who's chimed in on this; I'm having a meeting early
> next week with the online folks to sort this out. I'm hoping there's been a
> miscommunication and everyone realizes clip names within a bin aren't the
> hard link to file name and just wants to make sure I don't go around
> renaming files on the Unity drives (!), but in case that's not the issue, I
> think I came up with a plan B.
> >
> > I realized I could subclip the "00000", "00001" clips in their entirety
> and give them whatever name I want, and then make string outs from the
> subclips. Cutting from a string out of subclips puts useful info into the
> timeline, and it won' t be that onerous for the assistant to blast through
> a few bins in a couple of hours and make the change. In fact, Bouke's macro
> editor may help out with this as well.
> >
> > -Robert
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo!
> > Grasshopper plays hide-and-seek
> > A photographer catches a plant-eating insect peeking through a hole in a
> big green leaf.
> > Privacy Policy
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


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[Avid-L2] OT: Anyone on this list working in Ireland?

 

If so, can you contact me offlist? Terry(at)alphadogs.tv

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[Avid-L2] Re: Auto-color balance

 

But…. The problem is that to get that black and white balance, Avid looks to the highest and lowest luminance pixels to balance. And what often happens, especially with noisy codecs, is that there is a lot of noise below "black". Those points get balanced and brought o zero IRE. This often results in raised blacks, a strong shift towards blue on the lower end, etc.

As far as the mids, or gamma, you can achieve a quick balance here with the "cast removal" tool. Click it on anything in the scene that you feel should be neutral, and it will balance that part of the scene. If you do this in curves you get an immediate idea of where things are out of balance.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dan McCabe <danlist@...> wrote:
>
> Thanks for the explanation Dennis.
>
> Dennis' explanation is more what I was trying to find out.
>
> The demo was an Avid User's group in New England (actually at
> Avid) with some local colorists including one from Frontline. The
> focus was less on artistic uses of grading and more on dealing
> with troublesome doc footage shot on all kinds of gear relatively
> quickly. Auto-contrast and auto color were both billed as
> ballpark first steps not the final word. Understanding the
> principles behind auto contrast was easy, auto color balance less
> so. Part of what was surprising was that the repeated use of
> auto color in Curves, hitting it two or three times in a row, led
> to slightly different results.
>
> D.
>
> On Sat, Mar 31, 2012, at 06:39 PM, Dennis Degan wrote:
>
>
> On Mar 31, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Dan McCabe wrote:
> > Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid
> CC
> correction demo this week and it was never really explained.
> I say:
> I can tell you how auto balance works in general. A color
> imbalance
> may exist in scenes that contain unequal RGB gains and ped
> levels.
> IOW, 'white' isn't really neutral white and 'black' may contain a
> bias
> towards one or more colors). These imbalances are usually caused
> by
> the lack of proper camera white- and black-balance when the scene
> was
> shot. Auto-balance compares the relative levels of R,G, and B in
> the
> overall scene and adjusts the gain and ped of the 3 color
> channels in
> order to minimize any color bias at the white and black levels.
> Since
> auto-balance cannot take into account any errors in gamma (it
> cannot
> measure gamma nor many other parameters), the use of auto balance
> is
> fairly crude and limited. All it sees is the relative peak and
> pedestal differences between red, green, and blue. Using that
> information, auto-balance then adjusts peak and ped levels of the
> 3
> color channels in order to minimize measurable color bias in the
> blacks and whites. Its use is not intended to replace a serious
> careful color grading done by an experienced specialist.
> Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
> NBC Today Show, New York
>
> __._,.
> [nc3=3848643]
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Auto-color balance

 

Thanks for the explanation Dennis.

Dennis' explanation is more what I was trying to find out.

The demo was an Avid User's group in New England (actually at
Avid) with some local colorists including one from Frontline. The
focus was less on artistic uses of grading and more on dealing
with troublesome doc footage shot on all kinds of gear relatively
quickly. Auto-contrast and auto color were both billed as
ballpark first steps not the final word. Understanding the
principles behind auto contrast was easy, auto color balance less
so. Part of what was surprising was that the repeated use of
auto color in Curves, hitting it two or three times in a row, led
to slightly different results.

D.

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012, at 06:39 PM, Dennis Degan wrote:

On Mar 31, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Dan McCabe wrote:
> Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid
CC
correction demo this week and it was never really explained.
I say:
I can tell you how auto balance works in general. A color
imbalance
may exist in scenes that contain unequal RGB gains and ped
levels.
IOW, 'white' isn't really neutral white and 'black' may contain a
bias
towards one or more colors). These imbalances are usually caused
by
the lack of proper camera white- and black-balance when the scene
was
shot. Auto-balance compares the relative levels of R,G, and B in
the
overall scene and adjusts the gain and ped of the 3 color
channels in
order to minimize any color bias at the white and black levels.
Since
auto-balance cannot take into account any errors in gamma (it
cannot
measure gamma nor many other parameters), the use of auto balance
is
fairly crude and limited. All it sees is the relative peak and
pedestal differences between red, green, and blue. Using that
information, auto-balance then adjusts peak and ped levels of the
3
color channels in order to minimize measurable color bias in the
blacks and whites. Its use is not intended to replace a serious
careful color grading done by an experienced specialist.
Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
NBC Today Show, New York

__._,.
[nc3=3848643]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] 24p - its always NDF - right ?

 

Correct, however, it does NOT count in real time. It has the same error as ndf tc at 29.97. Consequently, if your final version is going to be 29.87 df, you'll need to compensate for the error by cutting the master slightly short. Media Composer has a pull-down that displays the 29.97 df equivalent to our current 23.98 timeline so you don't even have to do the math.

GH
__________________________
Greg Huson
Chief
Secret Headquarters, inc
Greg (at) SecretHQ.Com
www.SecretHQ.com
www.DigitalServiceStation.com

Sent from my iPad

On Mar 31, 2012, at 4:17 PM, "David" <k27usa@yahoo.com> wrote:

> just double checking - doing a project that was shot 23.97, please just confirm for me that there is NO drop frame at this frame rate - its only NDF
>
> thanks
>
> Dave B
>
> (you may begin howling with laughter now)
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] 24p - its always NDF - right ?

 

just double checking - doing a project that was shot 23.97, please just confirm for me that there is NO drop frame at this frame rate - its only NDF

thanks

Dave B

(you may begin howling with laughter now)

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Re: [Avid-L2] Auto-color balance

 


On Mar 31, 2012, at 2:57 PM, Dan McCabe wrote:

> Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
correction demo this week and it was never really explained.

I say:

I can tell you how auto balance works in general. A color imbalance
may exist in scenes that contain unequal RGB gains and ped levels.
IOW, 'white' isn't really neutral white and 'black' may contain a bias
towards one or more colors). These imbalances are usually caused by
the lack of proper camera white- and black-balance when the scene was
shot. Auto-balance compares the relative levels of R,G, and B in the
overall scene and adjusts the gain and ped of the 3 color channels in
order to minimize any color bias at the white and black levels. Since
auto-balance cannot take into account any errors in gamma (it cannot
measure gamma nor many other parameters), the use of auto balance is
fairly crude and limited. All it sees is the relative peak and
pedestal differences between red, green, and blue. Using that
information, auto-balance then adjusts peak and ped levels of the 3
color channels in order to minimize measurable color bias in the
blacks and whites. Its use is not intended to replace a serious
careful color grading done by an experienced specialist.

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
NBC Today Show, New York

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Auto-color balance

I agree with Terence and Steve, the auto settings will get you into a
"ballpark" and truthfully many more expensive grading systems like Lustre
do not have the quick balance tools like Avid.
For television finishing, I could have used it a couple of times when I was
grading on Lustre.
At some point, possibly a number NAB's ago, someone at Avid was touting it
as "set it, forget it, and done". Of course, milk spewed out of nose as I
laughed my ass off.
Auto tools are get you into a color accurate based on math, not based
on aesthetics or taste. Use only as needed.

cheers

On Sat, Mar 31, 2012 at 5:08 PM, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@veralith.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> My color correction book has a vivid example of how auto color correction
> can destroy a nice shot.
>
> Terry is correct in that the results for Auto-CC vary depending on which
> tab you're in. How it works depends on the tab. If you do it while in the
> Curves tab, you can see exactly what it's doing because the curves Avid
> creates automatically are displayed right in front of you. In the Hue
> Offset tab, I believe it also does the same thing, but I rarely use it so I
> don't remember.
>
> In Symphony there are also Settings (I think) for how it applies each of
> the corrections because the order that the corrections are applied makes a
> difference in how the correction looks. Check the MC6 settings to see if it
> has them to...I'm not at a machine to check, but there are definitely CC
> Settings.
>
> It is possible for Auto-CC to have excellent results on the right show.
> And as a first step, it's not terrible to do, especially if you're in a
> rush and not great at doing CC manually.
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
> > In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dan McCabe <danlist@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
> > > correction demo this week and it was never really explained.
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Tapeless Reality Check - clip names "00000".

 

Sorry, I completely missed the duplicate naming problem which I realize was the whole point of this.

Errr....

On Mar 31, 2012, at 12:35 PM, "Robert" <robertsalsbury@me.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Anna Hovhannessian <annahovhannessian@...> wrote:
> >
> > If you're nervous about renaming clips, The other option is to make stringouts.
> >
> > You can stringout each interview in a sequence. Makes it easier anyway. Radio cuts are faster, scenes make more sense, finding timecode easier.
> >
> > Same thing with Broll footage.
> >
> > I rarely look at the clips anyway, i just go straight to the strings.
> >
> > The only time I go to the footage bin is if I need to look at the metadata for some reason or troubleshoot something.
> >
>
> I'm already working that way, the issue though is that when you cut from a string out reel into your timeline, you have nonsense info in this case as the underlying clip names are useless.
>
> Thanks to everyone who's chimed in on this; I'm having a meeting early next week with the online folks to sort this out. I'm hoping there's been a miscommunication and everyone realizes clip names within a bin aren't the hard link to file name and just wants to make sure I don't go around renaming files on the Unity drives (!), but in case that's not the issue, I think I came up with a plan B.
>
> I realized I could subclip the "00000", "00001" clips in their entirety and give them whatever name I want, and then make string outs from the subclips. Cutting from a string out of subclips puts useful info into the timeline, and it won' t be that onerous for the assistant to blast through a few bins in a couple of hours and make the change. In fact, Bouke's macro editor may help out with this as well.
>
> -Robert
>
>
>
>
> TODAY(Beta) • Powered by Yahoo!
> Grasshopper plays hide-and-seek
> A photographer catches a plant-eating insect peeking through a hole in a big green leaf.
> Privacy Policy

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Auto-color balance

 

My color correction book has a vivid example of how auto color correction can destroy a nice shot.

Terry is correct in that the results for Auto-CC vary depending on which tab you're in. How it works depends on the tab. If you do it while in the Curves tab, you can see exactly what it's doing because the curves Avid creates automatically are displayed right in front of you. In the Hue Offset tab, I believe it also does the same thing, but I rarely use it so I don't remember.

In Symphony there are also Settings (I think) for how it applies each of the corrections because the order that the corrections are applied makes a difference in how the correction looks. Check the MC6 settings to see if it has them to...I'm not at a machine to check, but there are definitely CC Settings.

It is possible for Auto-CC to have excellent results on the right show. And as a first step, it's not terrible to do, especially if you're in a rush and not great at doing CC manually.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
> In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dan McCabe <danlist@...> wrote:
> >
> > Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
> > correction demo this week and it was never really explained.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: Auto-color balance

 

Well, there are a lot of "auto" things to do with CC. And they behave differently depending upon which tab you are working in. So can you clarify what you saw in the demo?

PS: The auto controls can often be very helpful in getting to a starting point rapidly, but very rarely are a final step. And when not used well, they can create havoc. Of course any demo is only going to show the best footage for optimum results.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dan McCabe <danlist@...> wrote:
>
> Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
> correction demo this week and it was never really explained.
>

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[Avid-L2] Auto-color balance

 

Anyone know how auto-color balance works in the CC? Saw an Avid CC
correction demo this week and it was never really explained.

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