Saturday, November 14, 2009

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Um, we called the show, "Thigh on LA"
Randy

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*******************************
Randall L. Rike, ACI, ACSR Mac•Win•Unity•DS
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-----Original Message-----
From: "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@pacbell.net>
Date: Sun, 15 Nov 2009 04:57:50
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

You obviously don't remember the 3D bikini special I did for Eye on LA back in 86. Babes, bikinis and 3D glasses. Helllllooooooo Betty ;-)

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
> PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save" the industry.
>



[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: And Now a Word About Online Finishing

When I started linear editing everything I did went straight to air. 3/4 to 1 inch and then 1 inch to 1 inch show composite. There was clean and trace but that didn't fall into play on most magazine television and documentary work that I worked on. So saying there is no more online is really nothing new to me. Back in those days your effects choices were dictated by which switcher and what DVE you had. So in essence you had to learn a new device or piece of software/hardware all the time. Having to go to AE from Avid is very similar although the complexity of the software today makes it harder to master than the crop of DVE's we dealt with back in the day.

Curious how many of the short commings you have with Avid's effects are available in BCC which comes bundled? Do you find things like Avid FX and BCC also suffer from poor image quality etc...?

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, chris magid <chris_rtvf@...> wrote:
>
THERE IS NO MORE ONLINE...THERE IS NO MORE OFFLINE for most projects.
>


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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

The difference I see with 3D is that long before the current crop of technology induced 3D work there has been a cyclic history of 3D. It has come on gone over the years. Remember the Elvira 3D movies in the mid 80's. The moonlighting episode in 3D. The NBC Superbowl halftime. The 3D banner has been a gimmick over and over.

The past is generally the best indicator of the future. 3D is generally used for effect and not to advance the story or plot. Most people feel it's the story that draws people in.

Not being a video gamer I could see where the 3D would be a real draw in that arena but for me it's still a gimmick when it comes to real story telling.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> I couldn't DISAGREE more!
>
> What you see as desperation, I see as innovation. And... I'm not talking about "Smell-o-vision here. 3D production and distribution is here to stay. The quality of the "viewing experience" has progressed to the point where it's just too good to ignore. The fact that you can now have a VERY GOOD 3 D presentation on your home 50" plasma means that theatrical venues aren't the ONLY distribution channel anymore. That alone will prop up many more 3D productions.
>
> In my opinion, 3D is going to become just another "style" of production. If the project merits it, then you'll choose to produce in 3D. Just like a filmmaker may choose to still shoot "Black and White" for effect. 3D will become a viable production choice... not just a marketing gimmick.
>
> As for the comment that 3D is "irrelevant to why people will continue to pay for premium entertainment..." that's just plain ignoring cinema history. Since the pioneering days of cinema, just about every technical innovation we now consider commonplace was originally touted as a "gimmick". Sound (talkies), Color, Cinemascope, THX audio, etc.
>
> There's plenty of reasons why people continue to pay for premium entertainment that have nothing to do with technical innovation, but to dismiss innovation as a significant factor is to ignore history.
>
> mark
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@> wrote:
> >
> > I couldn't agree more. The current cult of 3D reeks of desperation. Ultimately, 3D is irrelevant to why people will continue to pay for premium entertainment -- in one way or another.
> >
> > D
> > David Dodson
> > davidadodson@
> > 818-541-1225
> > 818-523-0905 mobile
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: Terence Curren <tcurren@>
> > To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 11:46:56 AM
> > Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update
> >
> >
> > PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save" the industry.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

::)

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 3:57 PM, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

> You obviously don't remember the 3D bikini special I did for Eye on
> LA back in 86. Babes, bikinis and 3D glasses. Helllllooooooo
> Betty ;-)
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>>
>> PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save"
>> the industry.
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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[Avid-L2] Re: 720p 23.98-1080p q

I don't want any options. I just want it to work. That was my point I don't want to have to have to go through a bunch of options to get it to work. How many times do omfs etc... have to be redone because it wasn't set up the way the mixer's system works? I wasn't complaining about afe at all.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "ksirul" <kenavid2@...> wrote:
>
> What options do you want?
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@> wrote:
> >
> > AFE now that's my kinda export. Anything that tells me there are no options to this export is my kinda format. If I wanted to think I'd have not been an editor, right? Squirrel Oh what was I saying?
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "ksirul" <kenavid2@> wrote:
> > >
> > > AFE not AAF. It links to the media. Client brought in a drive with the project media. I copied that to an MXF folder on my DS storage. In DS sequence prefs, you can set how to resize media. DS scaled to 1080. It looks good. I have to render the entire sequence but the render is about real time. A 54 minute sequence took about that long to render. Now I just import graphics that were created at 1080p And upconvert SD archive material (this is a doc) through an Alchemist and there you go.
> > >
> > > KEN
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Just for my own edification when you AAF'd the sequence is that with embedded or linked media? Did you in fact transcode to 1080 first? If not how is the DS taking the 720 media and making it 1080? Is it like SN where the project setting determines the output format. If your in a 1080 timeline but the media 720 how is that getting out of 720?
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "ksirul" <kenavid2@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I'd rather get out of 720 ASAP and see whats going on in 1080, also for graphics. As far as DS finishing, our 2 Symphs are booked on another job which is fine because I much prefer DS anyway. Now that the sequence successfully opened in DS 1080p, I"m excited!
> > > > >
> > > > > KEN
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Ken why not cross convert on the way out to tape. I've done that with 720 P2 to output to 1080 23.98 Psf. Had no problems. Why go to DS at all?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "ksirul" <kenavid2@> wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Symph DX Nitris v 4.0
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Client edited with P2 footage in a 720p 23.98 DVCPro Sequence. Can I, and what is the quality, transcode this footage to 1080p 23.98 for finishing? I will probably move the MXF media over to DS for finishing but wondering if this transcode is possible and what the quality is like.
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > KEN
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


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[Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

You obviously don't remember the 3D bikini special I did for Eye on LA back in 86. Babes, bikinis and 3D glasses. Helllllooooooo Betty ;-)

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
> PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save" the industry.
>


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[Avid-L2] Re: Avid + Drifting Audio

I've never seen that problem that I would blame on clip name. Since I can rename clips all day long and avid links based on tape and timecode for captured media I don't see how clip name effects anything other than the text in the bin and timeline. I've seen clip names in a sequence change when a sequence relinks to a different clip that has a different name. I'm not saying you're wrong but I don't see how clip name could have any effect on audio drift the way I understand it. I'd love to learn something new here.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Martin Thorbjörnsson <kontakta.martin@...> wrote:
>
I have seen this cause audio drifts in
> Xpress before. Avid dont like clips with the same name.
>
> Best wishes,
> Martin Thorbjörnsson, Sweden
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

On Nov 14, 2009, at 4:21 PM, IAN WILSON wrote:

> I agree with Terry. Remember Cinerama.

Very well. In fact, been working on a restoration project today to
restore a merged print of Windjammer. Today was setting up the
project, working on how to handle dust busting and then how to realign
already merged panels and/or color correct individual panels (because
the separate segments are no longer available complete) etc.

I'm glad I'm only the technical consultant, not the person who has to
go shot by shot to align and color correct individual panels.

Philip


Philip Hodgetts
President, Intelligent Assistance
AssistedEditing.com Fast First Cuts, Metadata Worfklows
Big Brains for Rent bigbrainsforrent.com
HD Survival Handbook 2009-2010
The New Now - Grow your business - ProAppsTips.com

Personal Blog http://philiphodgetts.com
Cell 818 335 3916

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RE: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Makes me miss Discreet EDIT* just a little bit.... (sigh) 

John McClary

--- On Fri, 11/13/09, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:

From: Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk>
Subject: RE: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Friday, November 13, 2009, 3:26 AM

 





"It will be missing the higher end node based compositing tree which will

stay with the full Smoke for now."

So what does it offer? I mean, seriously. Why would anyone want one unless

they're already an Autocreet house? The DS-like node based compositing is

all Smoke has going for it.

HD Heaven Limited (company no: 04620550) is registered in England and Wales

at Branston Court, Branston Street, Birmingham BL8 6BA

-----Original Message-----

From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com] On Behalf Of

Terence Curren

Sent: 13 November 2009 03:47

To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com

Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Slight update. You do not need to own another Smoke to buy one.

It will require the yearly service contract to keep it licensed.

It will be missing the higher end node based compositing tree which will

stay with the full Smoke for now.





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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: And Now a Word About Online Finishing

I guess that's my point - integrated environment means nothing (no matter what your tools) without a stable editing platform. Avid has that, the rest is just importing.

John McClary

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Terence Curren <tcurren@aol.com> wrote:

From: Terence Curren <tcurren@aol.com>
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: And Now a Word About Online Finishing
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 7:27 PM

 





--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com, John McClary <johnnyq_@.. .> wrote:

<<if an integrated environment is all you need, why isn't everyone moving to CS4?>>

One word...Premiere.





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[Avid-L2] Re: And Now a Word About Online Finishing

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John McClary <johnnyq_@...> wrote:


<<if an integrated environment is all you need, why isn't everyone moving to CS4?>>


One word...Premiere.

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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

LOL... groan.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, IAN WILSON <ian@...> wrote:
>
> You need to get together.
>
> Ian Wilson
> Colortape Productions
> Ian@...
> 0418 327 082
> Via iPhone
>
> On 15/11/2009, at 10:34 AM, Dennis Degan <DennyD1@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Terence Curren wrote:
> >
> >> Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers from
> > 5 to 30 percent.
> >
> > I concur:
> >
> > I am one of those. The producer I work with on weekdays is also
> > similarly affected. We both have limited vision in one eye. Mine is
> > limited in the right eye, his is in his left. 3D is a waste on both
> > of
> > us.
> >
> > Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
> > NBC Today Show, New York
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> >
> > Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> > Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] And Now a Word About Online Finishing

Still, if an integrated environment is all you need, why isn't everyone moving to CS4? Most editors I know do their graphics in After Effects - so if an INEXPENSIVE INTEGRATED environment is all you need, then why did Adobe just lay off almost 700 people in yet another restructuring?

John McClary

--- On Sat, 11/14/09, chris magid <chris_rtvf@yahoo.com> wrote:

From: chris magid <chris_rtvf@yahoo.com>
Subject: [Avid-L2] And Now a Word About Online Finishing
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 2:06 PM

 





I have been reading the Smoke on Mac thread with great interest. It makes me think about how poor any Avid Composer based products are at true online finishing. Symphony is no exception. Simply put the tools are STILL NOT THERE to perform anything but the most basic on-lines or finishes.

Things like natively scaling a title or alpha based graphic with acceptable quality. THIS CANNOT BE DONE in 2009 in an Avid product with results which can truly be called PROFESSIONAL. This same limitation applies to many DVE functions. Edge quality or workflow with any sort of matte work garbage or otherwise via Animatte is pretty poor too. The Spectramatte keyer is limited in its usefulness because it is a closed environment not allowing any other operations beyond the very limited Avid DVE  (no soft shadows, no additional matte operations, poor quality etc). The color corrector has not aged well and is limited compared to newer options. 

So lets see, that covers color correction, basic compositing, basic graphics, low level effects, etc. That is online. That is finishing.

Beyond core functionality and quality are many workflow issues like track to track alpha behavior, mixing native and plug in effects and very poor multiple effect stack management. 

Seems to me, for anything beyond cuts, dissolves, moderate color correction and simple non-problem keys you are using Composer/Symphony to really assemble material rendered somewhere else or you can use 3rd party plug ins for some tasks. And you better hope that your material created somewhere else doesn't need little adjustments. ..you will be making another round trip.  At that point does Avid vs FCP vs anything else matter. 

It is a shame that Avid is blowing it by providing a flexible editing environment with improving frame rate and format support but not closing the deal with the tools necessary for real finishing... at least at a basic level. These are the capabilities which make Smoke attractive to people and to some degree DS. Once you have to leave your core NLE environment to turn the job over to another person or system Smoke vs DS makes little difference. 

But isn't it time that Symphony provides for some of this without having to bailout to other applications or finishing editors. 

For the record, it appears Avid is also blowing it with their DS game plan.

Chris MagidRTVF

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

You need to get together.

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 10:34 AM, Dennis Degan <DennyD1@verizon.net> wrote:

>
> On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Terence Curren wrote:
>
>> Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers from
> 5 to 30 percent.
>
> I concur:
>
> I am one of those. The producer I work with on weekdays is also
> similarly affected. We both have limited vision in one eye. Mine is
> limited in the right eye, his is in his left. 3D is a waste on both
> of
> us.
>
> Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
> NBC Today Show, New York
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

I agree with Terry. Remember Cinerama.

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 10:22 AM, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@aol.com> wrote:

> Here are some reasons it will not do as well as the manufacturers
> are trying to hype us into believing.
>
> 1: Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers
> from 5 to 30 percent. And of those that can, some get sick from it
> if there are too many motion scenes.
>
> 2: It is incredibly difficult to do correctly. It isn't just bolting
> two cameras together and shooting like you always have. There is an
> art to adjusting, per shot, the distance between the two lenses
> (eyes) which establishes where your depth perception resolves. We do
> this automatically, move your finger towards your eye to see what I
> mean. Cameras don't do it automatically.
>
> While this can also be adjusted in post to some degree, you will
> get nauseous after working for half an hour trying to tweak this.
>
> 3: They charge more at the theater. This isn't going to fly much
> longer as the novelty wears off.
>
> 4: Are you all ready to throw away your TVs again and buy yet
> another new set so you can watch 3D? And don't forget you have to
> wear the glasses the whole time.
>
> 5: What does it add to the story? I agree with David 100 percent
> that story is king. Just saw A Christmas Carol in 3D. The 3D was
> part of the story in the flying around scenes. I could even feel the
> slight lightheadedness as I "flew" close to rooftops, etc. Of course
> I experienced that exact same sensation when I first saw Empire
> Strikes Back and the guy was flying over the snow looking for Han
> Solo. Oh yeah, that was in 2D....
>
>
> Those are just off the top of my head reasons. But a lot of folks
> are betting that this is going to get kids away from their World of
> Warcraft and run to a theater. Not me.
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re:Avid + Drifting Audio

Have not been following this post, but If it's DV shot, it's audio is
not locked to the video, that means it may have nothing to do with FW.

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 5:49 AM, William Meese <pixcutter@earthlink.net>
wrote:

> I don't think audio embedded in the FW signal should drift, but I
> almost never capture via FW.
> How much drift? That may give you a clue. And if recapturing solves
> it, I'd say do it now; that would be easier than syncing by eye.
>
> "I was also told there was some sort of formula to correct
> it like " -2 frames of audio for every 10 minutes of video" or
> something to that affect"
>
> Sounds like a reference to NDF vs. DF timecode, which should not apply
> here. Please don't start a thread about NDF vs. DF TC; it was just
> covered in depth. Please. Don't.
>
>
> William Meese
> Red Ball Rolling
> pixcutter@earthlink.net
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Yeah, no, these are all the exact problems the majors are squirming over right now. The studios are in adapt-or-die mode right now and no one, no executive, no analyst, no soothsayer with chicken bones and tea leaves knows what's going to happen and how it's all going to eventually shake out.

I don't know that it's accurate to ask whether or not kids would pay to go see "Lawrence of Arabia" now. Right now, the 'Lord of the Rings' trilogy and the Harry Potter movies and the Twilight series -- these ARE their Lawrence of Arabias. And these movies are no less demanding in time and effort than was 'Lawrence'. Heck, some are MORE demanding. So I'm not sure about this argument. When has the emergent generation ever been anything OTHER than a completely indecipherable mystery to the Establishment?

In my particular niche (theatrically-released feature films) there are only three reliable ways to get a film made and seen. 1. Be one of the few big players like a Bruckheimer or a Rudin and make tent poles based on movies with preexisting brand name identity or undeniable franchise potential. 2. Bring the studio a package that basically eliminates all exposure for them. Like a domestic project financed with foreign money that needs only a modest theatrical return and nominally-performing ancillary revenue. And finally 3. Do something self-financed or micro-financed and hope for a miracle (see following paragraph). And that's it.

As for going viral, well you can't really write a business plan based on that, can you? "Snakes On a Plane" sucked and was only barely profitable. And "Paranormal Activity" is a lightning strike. For every success like 'Paranormal' there are AT LEAST 1000 wannabees so craptacular that no one wants to have anything to do with them. So again, not much of a model for a business there.

Right now -- and again, RIGHT NOW is all we have -- but right now the majors are learning that they can't just export their domestic product internationally -- but that they have to be a part of creating region-specific product everywhere. The release of Disney's "Kniga Masterov" in Russia right now is a perfect example.

But it's a weird, weird world out there in media right now. Very weird. And we're all going to have to stay very light on our feet if we want to continue working in this industry.

D
David Dodson
davidadodson@sbcglobal.net
818-541-1225
818-523-0905 mobile


________________________________
From: Terence Curren <tcurren@aol.com>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 3:34:15 PM
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update


--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com, David Dodson <davidadodson@ ...> wrote:

<<But color me naive, human beings are at their core story telling and story receiving vessels.>>

I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying I don't see how the studios are going to be able to support their massive overhead in the new world. Most folks are willing to settle for "good enough" now. How many kids now would pay to go see Lawrence of Arabia? Not a chance, too slow, give it to me faster... you know, like in a 5 minute YouTube clip....

And how does a studio deal with that? They have had a controlled pipeline for almost the entire history of cinema. Even after the government made them divest the theaters, they maintained control by telling the theaters they had to take their bad movies with the good ones.

If you are an independent distributor, that is a tough enough nut to crack, not to mention the prohibitive cost of release prints, advertising, and trailer placement.

Well, today you can place your trailer up for free on your site. Throw it onto YouTube for increased exposure. Go viral like Snake on a Plane, or Paranormal Activity. And as soon as the theaters are all digital, a concept the studios have self destructively been pushing for years, the cost of distribution becomes a hard drive.

I don't think things are ever going back to where they were in the past. Not even to where they were two years ago. All the folks who have been cutting their rates to"get through" this recession, are not going to be able to raise them whenever this ends. To do that they would have to increase demand beyond supply, and I don't see that happening.


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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> Well, if you live in the UK...
>
> http://www.channel4.com/programmes/3d-week
>
> It's 3D week on CH 4.


And a quick jump to the sites shows the week includes one Rock concert in 3D. Some footage of the queen in 3D, and two great 3D movies! "Flesh for Frankenstein" 1973, and Friday the Thirteenth part 3 in 3D, 1982.

There goes that repeating cycle of attempts at selling 3D...

BTW: read the comments of folks who were pissed because they thought it would be polarized 3D like in the theaters, when it the old two colored glasses trick.

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[Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@...> wrote:


<<But color me naive, human beings are at their core story telling and story receiving vessels.>>


I'm not arguing that at all. I'm just saying I don't see how the studios are going to be able to support their massive overhead in the new world. Most folks are willing to settle for "good enough" now. How many kids now would pay to go see Lawrence of Arabia? Not a chance, too slow, give it to me faster... you know, like in a 5 minute YouTube clip....

And how does a studio deal with that? They have had a controlled pipeline for almost the entire history of cinema. Even after the government made them divest the theaters, they maintained control by telling the theaters they had to take their bad movies with the good ones.

If you are an independent distributor, that is a tough enough nut to crack, not to mention the prohibitive cost of release prints, advertising, and trailer placement.

Well, today you can place your trailer up for free on your site. Throw it onto YouTube for increased exposure. Go viral like Snake on a Plane, or Paranormal Activity. And as soon as the theaters are all digital, a concept the studios have self destructively been pushing for years, the cost of distribution becomes a hard drive.

I don't think things are ever going back to where they were in the past. Not even to where they were two years ago. All the folks who have been cutting their rates to"get through" this recession, are not going to be able to raise them whenever this ends. To do that they would have to increase demand beyond supply, and I don't see that happening.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

On Nov 14, 2009, at 6:22 PM, Terence Curren wrote:

> Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers from
5 to 30 percent.

I concur:

I am one of those. The producer I work with on weekdays is also
similarly affected. We both have limited vision in one eye. Mine is
limited in the right eye, his is in his left. 3D is a waste on both of
us.

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
NBC Today Show, New York

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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

Well, if you live in the UK...

http://www.channel4.com/programmes/3d-week

It's 3D week on CH 4.


Mark

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
> Here are some reasons it will not do as well as the manufacturers are trying to hype us into believing.
>
> 1: Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers from 5 to 30 percent. And of those that can, some get sick from it if there are too many motion scenes.
>
> 2: It is incredibly difficult to do correctly. It isn't just bolting two cameras together and shooting like you always have. There is an art to adjusting, per shot, the distance between the two lenses (eyes) which establishes where your depth perception resolves. We do this automatically, move your finger towards your eye to see what I mean. Cameras don't do it automatically.
>
> While this can also be adjusted in post to some degree, you will get nauseous after working for half an hour trying to tweak this.
>
> 3: They charge more at the theater. This isn't going to fly much longer as the novelty wears off.
>
> 4: Are you all ready to throw away your TVs again and buy yet another new set so you can watch 3D? And don't forget you have to wear the glasses the whole time.
>
> 5: What does it add to the story? I agree with David 100 percent that story is king. Just saw A Christmas Carol in 3D. The 3D was part of the story in the flying around scenes. I could even feel the slight lightheadedness as I "flew" close to rooftops, etc. Of course I experienced that exact same sensation when I first saw Empire Strikes Back and the guy was flying over the snow looking for Han Solo. Oh yeah, that was in 2D....
>
>
> Those are just off the top of my head reasons. But a lot of folks are betting that this is going to get kids away from their World of Warcraft and run to a theater. Not me.
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] And Now a Word About Online Finishing

two problems

#1

The online/offline workflow is now more about tools and shortcomings than people. In our shop we think of most post production as one process and we employee post production specialists to create edits from soup to nuts. That means graphic design, effects, color correction and etc. This is a good fit for a great majority of projects provided you have the right people. The short of it is...THERE IS NO MORE ONLINE...THERE IS NO MORE OFFLINE for most projects.

It is the machine which stands in the way. These post production artists in our shop and others are having to bounce out their NLE, be it FCP, Symphony or whatever to accomplish simple tasks. The level of graphic design, animation, effects and compositing which are the most common needs in most projects require invoking after effects or creative use of unwieldy stacks of plugs ins. Both of which make content revisions or minor tweaks difficult to perform within the NLE and that sort of kills an advantage of the NLE.

A project may not need a great deal of this and that makes adjusting workflow for a small need even a bigger bother. Soft shadow on DVE or key....NOPE. Scale or move a text title or picture with alpha...NOPE. Need a banding free vignette or feathered matte of some type...NOPE. Post key color correction...FORGET IT. Need a color corrector with something more than EZ BAKE controls...NOPE. ETC ETC ETC. The list is LONG.

#2

The separation of tools like DS and Symphony CANNOT BE QUALITY OF SIMPLE TASKS. The separation must be FEATURES. This is the old "anything worth doing is worth doing well" Scaling, shadows and visual quality of touted features must not be considered a HIGH END only function. IT POLLUTES THE BRAND. And ticks off editors trying to get something easy done.

If the majority of Sony Televisions were crap, what do you think would happen to the perceived value of an Sony XBR9.

If "Avids" are known to not be able to hack even simple effects folks (producers and purchasers) may be very shy to jump over to an Avid DS to do effects intensive work.

Discreet's reputation is far better in this area. And it is maybe why people are talking about software only Smoke more than they EVER talked about the software version of DS.

Then there is the issue of trust. I am not confident Avid won't kill DS or help those who invest in one with the sort of marketing support which is needed for a tool to gain widespread acceptance. Also not confident that Avid wouldn't inadvertently do something to either Composer or DS which hurts total conform.


BUT

I digress. The point is their should be no need to jump out of an "advanced" NLE to a "finishing box" to do simple things.

Avid once again is resting their chops on the needs of those who strictly work with long form narrative storytelling.


--- On Sat, 11/14/09, Marc Fisher <cav2ya@sbcglobal.net> wrote:

> From: Marc Fisher <cav2ya@sbcglobal.net>
> Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] And Now a Word About Online Finishing
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, November 14, 2009, 2:48 PM
> well, i have to argee and disagree
> with you about using the DS.
>
> it's not that hard use it for online, it's just a different
> interface. 
> if those who are willing to learn Smoke are reading this,
> then they 
> should be more willing to learn DS, as it does conform
> about 90%of 
> your avid timeline. and that 10% it doesn't ,like
> animattes, do you 
> really want to use a offline editors animatte, version
> using a 
> finishing tool to do that?
>
> As for Symph and composer, the tools are a joke for online.
> the 
> product lines needs to be slimmed down to 2, offline and
> online. symph 
> only has secondary color correctors over mc, so Symph needs
> to be 
> killed. R&D needs to go into DS, and make it where you
> introduce the 
> new features, then migrate them to the offline. having it
> reversed 
> like it is now is ridiculous.
>
> DS is a great tool, too bad Avid thinks it's the bastard
> step child. 
> as do most MC editors.
>
> marc
>
>
> On Nov 14, 2009, at 11:06 AM, chris magid wrote:
>
> > I have been reading the Smoke on Mac thread with great
> interest. It 
> > makes me think about how poor any Avid Composer based
> products are 
> > at true online finishing. Symphony is no exception.
> Simply put the 
> > tools are STILL NOT THERE to perform anything but the
> most basic on-
> > lines or finishes.
> > Things like natively scaling a title or alpha based
> graphic with 
> > acceptable quality. THIS CANNOT BE DONE in 2009 in an
> Avid product 
> > with results which can truly be called PROFESSIONAL.
> This same 
> > limitation applies to many DVE functions. Edge quality
> or workflow 
> > with any sort of matte work garbage or otherwise via
> Animatte is 
> > pretty poor too. The Spectramatte keyer is limited in
> its usefulness 
> > because it is a closed environment not allowing any
> other operations 
> > beyond the very limited Avid DVE  (no soft
> shadows, no additional 
> > matte operations, poor quality etc). The color
> corrector has not 
> > aged well and is limited compared to newer options.
> >
> > So lets see, that covers color correction, basic
> compositing, basic 
> > graphics, low level effects, etc. That is online. That
> is finishing.
> > Beyond core functionality and quality are many
> workflow issues like 
> > track to track alpha behavior, mixing native and plug
> in effects and 
> > very poor multiple effect stack management.
> > Seems to me, for anything beyond cuts, dissolves,
> moderate color 
> > correction and simple non-problem keys you are using
> Composer/
> > Symphony to really assemble material rendered
> somewhere else or you 
> > can use 3rd party plug ins for some tasks. And you
> better hope that 
> > your material created somewhere else doesn't need
> little 
> > adjustments...you will be making another round
> trip.  At that point 
> > does Avid vs FCP vs anything else matter.
> > It is a shame that Avid is blowing it by providing a
> flexible 
> > editing environment with improving frame rate and
> format support but 
> > not closing the deal with the tools necessary for
> real 
> > finishing...at least at a basic level. These are the
> capabilities 
> > which make Smoke attractive to people and to some
> degree DS. Once 
> > you have to leave your core NLE environment to turn
> the job over to 
> > another person or system Smoke vs DS makes little
> difference.
> > But isn't it time that Symphony provides for some of
> this without 
> > having to bailout to other applications or finishing
> editors.
> > For the record, it appears Avid is also blowing it
> with their DS 
> > game plan.
> > Chris MagidRTVF
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
> Marc Fisher
> cav2ya@sbcglobal.net
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives
> at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one
> book:   http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo   Get
> your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>     Avid-L2-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>



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[Avid-L2] Re: Red Rocket Cine-X information

Yes, but on Symph v1, ICE fx had better color correction tools than the Avid color effect. What a render though.


--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Red Truck" <redtruckproductions@> wrote:
>
>
> << Would that be a similar experience as say to Avid on I.C.E.?>>
>
>
> Oooh, there's a flashback that sent shivers down my spine.
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

Here are some reasons it will not do as well as the manufacturers are trying to hype us into believing.

1: Some percentage of the audience can't see it. I've heard numbers from 5 to 30 percent. And of those that can, some get sick from it if there are too many motion scenes.

2: It is incredibly difficult to do correctly. It isn't just bolting two cameras together and shooting like you always have. There is an art to adjusting, per shot, the distance between the two lenses (eyes) which establishes where your depth perception resolves. We do this automatically, move your finger towards your eye to see what I mean. Cameras don't do it automatically.

While this can also be adjusted in post to some degree, you will get nauseous after working for half an hour trying to tweak this.

3: They charge more at the theater. This isn't going to fly much longer as the novelty wears off.

4: Are you all ready to throw away your TVs again and buy yet another new set so you can watch 3D? And don't forget you have to wear the glasses the whole time.

5: What does it add to the story? I agree with David 100 percent that story is king. Just saw A Christmas Carol in 3D. The 3D was part of the story in the flying around scenes. I could even feel the slight lightheadedness as I "flew" close to rooftops, etc. Of course I experienced that exact same sensation when I first saw Empire Strikes Back and the guy was flying over the snow looking for Han Solo. Oh yeah, that was in 2D....


Those are just off the top of my head reasons. But a lot of folks are betting that this is going to get kids away from their World of Warcraft and run to a theater. Not me.

------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: 3D is here to stay!

Which is why I just dropped them back in the glasses recycle bin after seeing the new A Christmas Carol movie. A BTW, it kicked ass.

JDS

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, IAN WILSON <ian@...> wrote:
>
> Nahh, as long as there are glasses it's not going anywhere.
>
> Ian Wilson
> Colortape Productions
> Ian@...
> 0418 327 082
> Via iPhone
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] 3D is here to stay!

Nahh, as long as there are glasses it's not going anywhere.

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 7:45 AM, "Mark" <markraudonis@yahoo.com> wrote:

> I couldn't DISAGREE more!
>
> What you see as desperation, I see as innovation. And... I'm not
> talking about "Smell-o-vision here. 3D production and
> distribution is here to stay. The quality of the "viewing
> experience" has progressed to the point where it's just too good to
> ignore. The fact that you can now have a VERY GOOD 3 D
> presentation on your home 50" plasma means that theatrical venues
> aren't the ONLY distribution channel anymore. That alone will prop
> up many more 3D productions.
>
> In my opinion, 3D is going to become just another "style" of
> production. If the project merits it, then you'll choose to produce
> in 3D. Just like a filmmaker may choose to still shoot "Black and
> White" for effect. 3D will become a viable production choice...
> not just a marketing gimmick.
>
> As for the comment that 3D is "irrelevant to why people will
> continue to pay for premium entertainment..." that's just plain
> ignoring cinema history. Since the pioneering days of cinema, just
> about every technical innovation we now consider commonplace was
> originally touted as a "gimmick". Sound (talkies), Color,
> Cinemascope, THX audio, etc.
>
> There's plenty of reasons why people continue to pay for premium
> entertainment that have nothing to do with technical innovation, but
> to dismiss innovation as a significant factor is to ignore history.
>
> mark
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, David Dodson <davidadodson@...> wrote:
>>
>> I couldn't agree more. The current cult of 3D reeks of
>> desperation. Ultimately, 3D is irrelevant to why people will
>> continue to pay for premium entertainment -- in one way or another.
>>
>> D
>> David Dodson
>> davidadodson@...
>> 818-541-1225
>> 818-523-0905 mobile
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ________________________________
>> From: Terence Curren <tcurren@...>
>> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
>> Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 11:46:56 AM
>> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update
>>
>>
>> PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save"
>> the industry.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Terry, I think you have to come from the deliverable end to get this
right and right now it's shooting and editing on your iPhone and up
onto UTube or
Vimeo, I am not sure the high end can survive. Revision3 and CNet have
the new distribution model right IMHO.

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 6:19 AM, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@aol.com> wrote:

>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "lucasgw1" <lucasgw1@...> wrote:
>
>
> <<This generation of filmmakers has grown up with YouTube as a
> deliverable, and the iPhone as the target.>>
>
> Agreed. I always look to the print industry for historical
> comparison.
>
> 40 years ago if you wanted to make a flyer for your business,
> you went to the local printer and paid dearly for their artist to
> mock something up. Once it was locked, you paid to make a master and
> then run your copies.
>
> Along came the Mac and desktop publishing. Next thing you knew
> there was crap everywhere. FrankenAds using every font available
> because they could.
>
> Today the mom and pop print shops are all gone and if you want
> to make a flier for your kids birthday party, you do it yourself on
> your home computer. (or Evite)
>
> However, if you want to create an ad or brochure for your
> business, you will hire a professional. No expensive print shop
> needed.
>
> I will always work as I can add value to a project. Post houses
> on the other hand are doomed. I predicted this over ten years ago,
> and it is finally coming to a head.
>
> The big question is what's next? How many studios can exist when
> the viewers are fine with watching movies for free on the web?
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update

Lucas, you make some valid points. From your perspective where is the
"day to day" editing solution going to come from? Because the only
thing that the RR card card does at the moment in the general editing
housekeeping is fast transcodes and of course Assimilates Rocket Fuel.
Where is the breakthrough NLE product? Is anybody going to play? Is
Oliver correct in the assumption that there is not enough demand? Is
the world waiting for a non- proprietary SMPTE backed format? or does
the world even require such a high end format anyway, given the change
in the way we are beginning to distribute stuff.

TWT

Ian Wilson
Colortape Productions
Ian@colortape.tv
0418 327 082
Via iPhone

On 15/11/2009, at 5:12 AM, "lucasgw1" <lucasgw1@yahoo.com> wrote:

> [emerge from the lurk]
>
> I think this new Smoke pricing puts an exclamation point on a
> statement...
>
> This is not about DS vs. Symphony vs. Smoke. It's about old vs. new.
>
> Having been professionally removed from the DS/Smoke/eQ/high-end
> editing
> world for awhile gives me a different perspective.
>
> There will always be a very small niche market at the ultra-high-end
> for
> expensive kit. Oh wait, Quantel has laid off massive amounts of people
> over the past year and DaVinci just got bought by a consumer widget
> company. Hm.
>
> We are in the middle of a generational shift in the professional
> culture. How many people on this forum are under 25? I'd venture to
> say
> a reeeaaalllly small percentage. You can say that's because this is a
> professional forum for people who are beyond the stage of 25-year
> olds.
> But the difference now is - nobody under 25 *wants* to be on this
> forum.
> When I was moving up the ranks, something like the Avid-L was
> something
> I strived for. I wanted to be at the level where I could usefully
> contribute and be part of that peer group. Now... nobody that age
> cares.
>
> I watch the young editors that will be the ACE editors in 5 or 10
> years.
> I watch the new breed of incredibly talented filmmakers and editors
> and
> how they work. They are all cutting on FCP and finishing on whatever
> they have. They don't give a crap about going to Co3 or RIOT for their
> finish. The lure of the high-end just doesn't exist anymore.
>
> Part of that is because the concept of "the deliverable" has changed
> so
> much. This generation of filmmakers has grown up with YouTube as a
> deliverable, and the iPhone as the target. I hear a tremendous
> amount of
> wailing and gnashing of teeth about this, but I think it's a great
> thing. Why? Because for these people, content and story really IS
> king.
> Is there a lot of garbage out there? Of course, but there has always
> been a lot of garbage out there. But I see so much really really good
> and creative storytelling being done on places like Vimeo and
> YouTube...
> by people who want to tell stories and tell them well, and aren't as
> concerned with "gee, how do I get this to film?"
>
> And hence... a 15K smoke... an 11K Rocket Fuel... a 2K FCP.
>
> It does not spell the end of any platform. But any platform that isn't
> looking around the industry and taking serious steps towards competing
> in the new generation is dead already.
>
>
> Lucas
>
>
>
>
>
> Lucas Wilson
>
> -----------------
>
>
> Director, Business Development
>
>
> ASSIMILATE, inc.
>
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@...> wrote:
>>
>> yep, and it should be interesting to see what kind of downward rate
> pressure the new McSmoke brings to its client base. Not sure many
> "garage band" college kids will be forking out $15k (software only),
> plus the "under $5k" mandatory support contract (read: $4999),
> however.
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo
> Get your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] 3D is here to stay!

Mark, you're absolutely right. Innovation is a good thing. And 3D is here to stay. And nobody thinks that theatrical distribution is the only venue. That notion died with the Betamax.

But the original comment was that 3D is not the salvation of the industry, as people like Jeff Katzenberg would have you believe. Because just as Sound, Color, Metrocolor, Technicolor, Cinemascope, VistaVision, Super Panavision 70, Cinerama and THX were not the salvation of the industry, nor is the current generation of 3D.

People want good stories, well told. All the above technical innovations (all the whole host of others) are just some of the tools we use to tell the stories well. Don't get me wrong; technical innovation is a healthy thing for the industry. I'm all for it. But it's not WHY we do it. And it's not WHY people go to the movies and watch television or rent a DVD or even pick up a book. The thing that endures are original voices with fresh, insightful and compelling things to say -- no matter the medium.

David
David Dodson
davidadodson@sbcglobal.net
818-541-1225
818-523-0905 mobile


________________________________
From: Mark <markraudonis@yahoo.com>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 12:45:31 PM
Subject: [Avid-L2] 3D is here to stay!


I couldn't DISAGREE more!

What you see as desperation, I see as innovation. And... I'm not talking about "Smell-o-vision here. 3D production and distribution is here to stay. The quality of the "viewing experience" has progressed to the point where it's just too good to ignore. The fact that you can now have a VERY GOOD 3 D presentation on your home 50" plasma means that theatrical venues aren't the ONLY distribution channel anymore. That alone will prop up many more 3D productions.

In my opinion, 3D is going to become just another "style" of production. If the project merits it, then you'll choose to produce in 3D. Just like a filmmaker may choose to still shoot "Black and White" for effect. 3D will become a viable production choice... not just a marketing gimmick.

As for the comment that 3D is "irrelevant to why people will continue to pay for premium entertainment. .." that's just plain ignoring cinema history. Since the pioneering days of cinema, just about every technical innovation we now consider commonplace was originally touted as a "gimmick". Sound (talkies), Color, Cinemascope, THX audio, etc.

There's plenty of reasons why people continue to pay for premium entertainment that have nothing to do with technical innovation, but to dismiss innovation as a significant factor is to ignore history.

mark

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com, David Dodson <davidadodson@ ...> wrote:
>
> I couldn't agree more. The current cult of 3D reeks of desperation. Ultimately, 3D is irrelevant to why people will continue to pay for premium entertainment -- in one way or another.
>
> D
> David Dodson
> davidadodson@ ...
> 818-541-1225
> 818-523-0905 mobile
>
>
>
>
> ____________ _________ _________ __
> From: Terence Curren <tcurren@... >
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups .com
> Sent: Sat, November 14, 2009 11:46:56 AM
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Smoke on Mac update
>
>
> PS: Paint me as a cynic but i don't think 3-D is going to "save" the industry.
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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