Saturday, October 22, 2011

[Avid-L2] Re: [OT] Excursion Pictures from Apex Electronics

 

Cool pix! Where in LA is this place. I gotta go there.

Steve Pomerantz
www.stevepomerantzeditorial.com

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@...> wrote:
>
>
>
>
> I thought one or two of you might like some of the pictures from my excursion yesterday to Apex Electronics in L.A. -- http://tinyurl.com/3w77rdm
>
> Cheers!
>
> B
>
> Benjamin Hershleder
> http://ContactBen.com
> http://Hershleder.com
>
> Wear It In Post!
> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
> for Post Production Professionals
> http://www.WearItInPost.com
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

I wouldn't accept the file in H.264. No reason for them not to render it in ProRes (or equivalent). DropBox or similar is easy enough.

I personally would avoid the Animation codec at this point. Much larger file sizes for motion graphics files generally (even with proRes4444 for alpha), 8 bit only, and I've had issues with color shifting (worse than ProRes).

James


On Oct 22, 2011, at 8:09 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:

> I have no idea. I've just been on the receiving end at this point. My gut tells me to ask for a prores or animation .mov of the same thing. I'm trying to find out if that is ridiculous request or unnecessary in terms of actual quality. Just because it's H.264 doesn't mean it's low quality, right? H.264 is generally processor intensive but does that mean it is more compressed and therefore lower quality than say a .mov in the animation codec set to best? My biggest clue that it might be of a lower quality is the sheer size of 57 ish MB for 24 secs that seems low to me but maybe I'm wrong with my concern over size, does it matter (pun intended). ;-)
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, James Culbertson <albion@...> wrote:
> >
> > What was their reason for not sending you a ProResHQ version?
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:54 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
> >
> > > Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything. I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product. I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I. But from what others have said it's not that uncommon. This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion. I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell. A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.
> > > >
> > > > B
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Benjamin Hershleder
> > > > http://ContactBen.com
> > > > http://Hershleder.com
> > > >
> > > > Wear It In Post!
> > > > Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
> > > > for Post Production Professionals
> > > > http://www.WearItInPost.com
> > > >
> > > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264. Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.
> > > > >
> > > > > It really depends on a lot of variables.
> > > > >
> > > > > James
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > >> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.
> > > > >>
> > > > >> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder
> > > > >>> is never wrong.
> > > > >>> --
> > > > >>> Tim McLaughlin
> > > > >>> Final Cut and Avid Editor
> > > > >>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim
> > > > >>> www.mcltim.com
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>> **
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60
> > > > >>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)
> > > > >>>> 48.000 KHz
> > > > >>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This
> > > > >>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually
> > > > >>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but
> > > > >>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live
> > > > >>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the
> > > > >>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we
> > > > >>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD
> > > > >>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up
> > > > >>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not
> > > > >>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I
> > > > >>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render
> > > > >>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of
> > > > >>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an
> > > > >>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to
> > > > >>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to
> > > > >>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> John Moore
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Barking Trout Productions
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> Studio City, CA
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> bigfish@
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >>>
> > > > >>
> > > > >>
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > ------------------------------------
> > > > >
> > > > > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> > > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

 

Just so I'm playing along here I want to check the derivation of data rate. The equation seems to be [57MB*(8bits/MB)]/24secs=19Mbps. I was at a Tektronix seminar last week and an ABC Technical Manager said the OTA data rate is around 13Mbps. So it would appear this graphic is above broadcast rate but seems really low for a post production environment. Also as is mentioned in this thread the 4:2:0 color space that is the current implementation is not ideal. Everything I'm hearing says they should redeliver in dnx or prores or even uncompressed. Thanks for all the info it is very helpful for someone who is more comfortable looking at the RF envelope than a data rate. Learning more every day.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigoresco <bogdan_grigorescu@...> wrote:
>
> According to the info provided by John, datarate of his clip is around 19Mbps, which is decent for full HD h264. For comparison, DishNetwork broadcasts at around 10Mbps and commercial Bluray discs are compressed at around 45Mbps.
>
> Question is, what were they supposed to deliver? Where there any specs provided for that? Why not DNxHD, if that's what John project is? Or perhaps ProRes, as someone else suggested?
>
> cheers,
> Bogdan Grigoresco
> Sr.Engineer, ACSR DS/Unity
> www.finale.tv
>
> --- On Sat, 10/22/11, Andi Meek <kwikpasta@...> wrote:
>
> From: Andi Meek <kwikpasta@...>
> Subject: RE: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?
> To: avid-l2@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 10:55 AM
>
>
> Bring up the inspector (Apple+I or Ctrl+I).  this will tell you the data rate.  The lower the data rate, the higher the compression, the smaller the file, what data rate have they used to compress the file?  For an HD frame size anything below 4500kbps is asking for trouble.  H.264 is VBR I think so it probably didn't save them any time encoding it, it may have taken them more time than if they used a CBR codec like ProRes, especially if they did more than one pass.  Likewise if there's lots of noise all over the frame then using Animation wouldn't be a great option either as the run length encoding that animation uses only compresses efficiently if there is not much changing from frame to frame.  I would have thought that the best option would have been Prores HQ or completely uncompressed.  Ask for it again, they're a graphics company so they should know better and if they don't then they should learn a lesson!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andi
>
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> From: bigfish@...
> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 04:54:24 +0000
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>  
>
>
>    
>      
>      
>       Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything.  I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product.  I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I.  But from what others have said it's not that uncommon.  This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion.  I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell.  A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@> wrote:
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.
>
> >
>
> > B
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > Benjamin Hershleder
>
> > http://ContactBen.com
>
> > http://Hershleder.com
>
> >
>
> > Wear It In Post!
>
> > Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
>
> > for Post Production Professionals
>
> > http://www.WearItInPost.com
>
> >
>
> > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:
>
> >
>
> > > That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264.  Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.
>
> > >
>
> > > It really depends on a lot of variables.
>
> > >
>
> > > James
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
>
> > >
>
> > >> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.
>
> > >>
>
> > >> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder
>
> > >>> is never wrong.
>
> > >>> --
>
> > >>> Tim McLaughlin
>
> > >>> Final Cut and Avid Editor
>
> > >>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim
>
> > >>> www.mcltim.com
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>> **
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60
>
> > >>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)
>
> > >>>> 48.000 KHz
>
> > >>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This
>
> > >>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually
>
> > >>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but
>
> > >>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live
>
> > >>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the
>
> > >>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we
>
> > >>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD
>
> > >>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up
>
> > >>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not
>
> > >>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I
>
> > >>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render
>
> > >>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of
>
> > >>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an
>
> > >>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to
>
> > >>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to
>
> > >>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> John Moore
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Barking Trout Productions
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> Studio City, CA
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> bigfish@
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > >>>
>
> > >>
>
> > >>
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > > ------------------------------------
>
> > >
>
> > > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> > >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
>    
>      
>
>    
>    
>
>
>
>
>
>
>                             
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

 

I have no idea. I've just been on the receiving end at this point. My gut tells me to ask for a prores or animation .mov of the same thing. I'm trying to find out if that is ridiculous request or unnecessary in terms of actual quality. Just because it's H.264 doesn't mean it's low quality, right? H.264 is generally processor intensive but does that mean it is more compressed and therefore lower quality than say a .mov in the animation codec set to best? My biggest clue that it might be of a lower quality is the sheer size of 57 ish MB for 24 secs that seems low to me but maybe I'm wrong with my concern over size, does it matter (pun intended). ;-)

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, James Culbertson <albion@...> wrote:
>
> What was their reason for not sending you a ProResHQ version?
>
> James
>
>
> On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:54 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
>
> > Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything. I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product. I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I. But from what others have said it's not that uncommon. This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion. I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell. A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.
> > >
> > > B
> > >
> > >
> > > Benjamin Hershleder
> > > http://ContactBen.com
> > > http://Hershleder.com
> > >
> > > Wear It In Post!
> > > Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
> > > for Post Production Professionals
> > > http://www.WearItInPost.com
> > >
> > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:
> > >
> > > > That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264. Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.
> > > >
> > > > It really depends on a lot of variables.
> > > >
> > > > James
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.
> > > >>
> > > >> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.
> > > >>>
> > > >>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder
> > > >>> is never wrong.
> > > >>> --
> > > >>> Tim McLaughlin
> > > >>> Final Cut and Avid Editor
> > > >>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim
> > > >>> www.mcltim.com
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
> > > >>>
> > > >>>> **
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60
> > > >>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)
> > > >>>> 48.000 KHz
> > > >>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This
> > > >>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually
> > > >>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but
> > > >>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live
> > > >>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the
> > > >>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we
> > > >>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD
> > > >>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up
> > > >>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not
> > > >>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I
> > > >>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render
> > > >>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of
> > > >>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an
> > > >>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to
> > > >>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to
> > > >>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> John Moore
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Barking Trout Productions
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> Studio City, CA
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> bigfish@
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>>
> > > >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >>>
> > > >>
> > > >>
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ------------------------------------
> > > >
> > > > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> > > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] [OT] Excursion Pictures from Apex Electronics

Holy crap… makes me feel old. Is that a D1 machine? And how about the Sony 9000 controller just piled in the middle of the other detritus…

gh
----------------------------------------------------
Greg Huson
Secret Headquarters, Inc
Post Production / Production
Culver City, CA
323 677 2092
www.DigitalServiceStation.com
greg (at) SecretHQ.com
facebook.com/greg.huson
www.SecretHQ.com

On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Hershleder wrote:

>
>
> I thought one or two of you might like some of the pictures from my excursion yesterday to Apex Electronics in L.A. -- http://tinyurl.com/3w77rdm
>
> Cheers!
>
> B
>
> Benjamin Hershleder
> http://ContactBen.com
> http://Hershleder.com
>
> Wear It In Post!
> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
> for Post Production Professionals
> http://www.WearItInPost.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] [OT] Excursion Pictures from Apex Electronics

Fascinating… I've been meaning to make that pilgrimage… Thanks for the photos!

gh
----------------------------------------------------
Greg Huson
Secret Headquarters, Inc
Post Production / Production
Culver City, CA
323 677 2092
www.DigitalServiceStation.com
greg (at) SecretHQ.com
facebook.com/greg.huson
www.SecretHQ.com

On Oct 22, 2011, at 12:37 PM, Benjamin Hershleder wrote:

>
>
> I thought one or two of you might like some of the pictures from my excursion yesterday to Apex Electronics in L.A. -- http://tinyurl.com/3w77rdm
>
> Cheers!
>
> B
>
> Benjamin Hershleder
> http://ContactBen.com
> http://Hershleder.com
>
> Wear It In Post!
> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
> for Post Production Professionals
> http://www.WearItInPost.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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[Avid-L2] [OT] Excursion Pictures from Apex Electronics

 



I thought one or two of you might like some of the pictures from my excursion yesterday to Apex Electronics in L.A. -- http://tinyurl.com/3w77rdm

Cheers!

B

Benjamin Hershleder
http://ContactBen.com
http://Hershleder.com

Wear It In Post!
Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
for Post Production Professionals
http://www.WearItInPost.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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RE: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

James, thanks for the info, i should have made that a bit clearer, i was just giving a ball park figure for a low data rate for a 1080 frame. Sometimes you don't have the time to get the best out of a codec and for delivering graphics or titles i would consider this on the low side of what i would want. But i agree, compression is an art and knowing more about it is always helpful. Cheers,

Andi

To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
From: albion@speakeasy.net
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 11:45:56 -0700
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?






Andi, 4500kbps is completely arbitrary even for 1080/60i. You can stay out of trouble and go quite a bit lower depending upon the content, frame size, frame rate, amount of action in frame, amount of noise,...

Depending upon the H.264 video codec supplier (i.e., Main Concept, etc.) you can have access to a number of different bandwidth controls including: CBR, padded CBR, VBR using peak rate, VBR - Quality Based, and VBR using VBV. One application's VBR might render faster than another's CBR.

But the main consideration is not necessarily the data rate (if the quality is good), but that H.264 MPEG4 is generally a distribution/acquisition format due mostly to it's inter-frame (across multiple frames) compression which leads to inefficiencies in random access of individual frames (not good for editing). While ProRes and similar use intra-frame compression which is much more efficient for editing. [H.264 also has a highly efficient intra-frame compression implementation, hence Panasonic's AVC-Intra acquisition codec.]

Another consideration is that current implementations of H.264, are still limited to 4:2:0 chroma sampling, and 8-bit color. Though the MPEG-4 spec (of which H.264 is a part) supports 4:2:2/4:4:4 chroma sampling and higher bit-depths in theory.

James

On Oct 22, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Andi Meek wrote:

> Bring up the inspector (Apple+I or Ctrl+I). this will tell you the data rate. The lower the data rate, the higher the compression, the smaller the file, what data rate have they used to compress the file? For an HD frame size anything below 4500kbps is asking for trouble. H.264 is VBR I think so it probably didn't save them any time encoding it, it may have taken them more time than if they used a CBR codec like ProRes, especially if they did more than one pass. Likewise if there's lots of noise all over the frame then using Animation wouldn't be a great option either as the run length encoding that animation uses only compresses efficiently if there is not much changing from frame to frame. I would have thought that the best option would have been Prores HQ or completely uncompressed. Ask for it again, they're a graphics company so they should know better and if they don't then they should learn a lesson!

>

> Cheers,

>

> Andi

>

> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com

> From: bigfish@pacbell.net

> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 04:54:24 +0000

> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything. I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product. I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I. But from what others have said it's not that uncommon. This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion. I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell. A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.

>

>

>

> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@...> wrote:

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.

>

>>

>

>> B

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> Benjamin Hershleder

>

>> http://ContactBen.com

>

>> http://Hershleder.com

>

>>

>

>> Wear It In Post!

>

>> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more

>

>> for Post Production Professionals

>

>> http://www.WearItInPost.com

>

>>

>

>> On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:

>

>>

>

>>> That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264. Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.

>

>>>

>

>>> It really depends on a lot of variables.

>

>>>

>

>>> James

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:

>

>>>

>

>>>> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.

>

>>>>

>

>>>> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder

>

>>>>> is never wrong.

>

>>>>> --

>

>>>>> Tim McLaughlin

>

>>>>> Final Cut and Avid Editor

>

>>>>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim

>

>>>>> www.mcltim.com

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>>> **

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60

>

>>>>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)

>

>>>>>> 48.000 KHz

>

>>>>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This

>

>>>>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually

>

>>>>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but

>

>>>>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live

>

>>>>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the

>

>>>>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we

>

>>>>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD

>

>>>>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up

>

>>>>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not

>

>>>>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I

>

>>>>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render

>

>>>>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of

>

>>>>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an

>

>>>>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to

>

>>>>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to

>

>>>>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> John Moore

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> Barking Trout Productions

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> Studio City, CA

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> bigfish@

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>>

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>>>>>

>

>>>>

>

>>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>> ------------------------------------

>

>>>

>

>>> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

>

>>> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>>

>

>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

>

>

> ------------------------------------

>

> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

> Yahoo! Groups Links

>

>

>

>




[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

 

Andi, 4500kbps is completely arbitrary even for 1080/60i. You can stay out of trouble and go quite a bit lower depending upon the content, frame size, frame rate, amount of action in frame, amount of noise,...

Depending upon the H.264 video codec supplier (i.e., Main Concept, etc.) you can have access to a number of different bandwidth controls including: CBR, padded CBR, VBR using peak rate, VBR - Quality Based, and VBR using VBV. One application's VBR might render faster than another's CBR.

But the main consideration is not necessarily the data rate (if the quality is good), but that H.264 MPEG4 is generally a distribution/acquisition format due mostly to it's inter-frame (across multiple frames) compression which leads to inefficiencies in random access of individual frames (not good for editing). While ProRes and similar use intra-frame compression which is much more efficient for editing. [H.264 also has a highly efficient intra-frame compression implementation, hence Panasonic's AVC-Intra acquisition codec.]

Another consideration is that current implementations of H.264, are still limited to 4:2:0 chroma sampling, and 8-bit color. Though the MPEG-4 spec (of which H.264 is a part) supports 4:2:2/4:4:4 chroma sampling and higher bit-depths in theory.

James

On Oct 22, 2011, at 10:55 AM, Andi Meek wrote:

> Bring up the inspector (Apple+I or Ctrl+I). this will tell you the data rate. The lower the data rate, the higher the compression, the smaller the file, what data rate have they used to compress the file? For an HD frame size anything below 4500kbps is asking for trouble. H.264 is VBR I think so it probably didn't save them any time encoding it, it may have taken them more time than if they used a CBR codec like ProRes, especially if they did more than one pass. Likewise if there's lots of noise all over the frame then using Animation wouldn't be a great option either as the run length encoding that animation uses only compresses efficiently if there is not much changing from frame to frame. I would have thought that the best option would have been Prores HQ or completely uncompressed. Ask for it again, they're a graphics company so they should know better and if they don't then they should learn a lesson!
>
> Cheers,
>
> Andi
>
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> From: bigfish@pacbell.net
> Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 04:54:24 +0000
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything. I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product. I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I. But from what others have said it's not that uncommon. This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion. I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell. A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@...> wrote:
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.
>
>>
>
>> B
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> Benjamin Hershleder
>
>> http://ContactBen.com
>
>> http://Hershleder.com
>
>>
>
>> Wear It In Post!
>
>> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more
>
>> for Post Production Professionals
>
>> http://www.WearItInPost.com
>
>>
>
>> On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:
>
>>
>
>>> That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264. Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.
>
>>>
>
>>> It really depends on a lot of variables.
>
>>>
>
>>> James
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:
>
>>>
>
>>>> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.
>
>>>>
>
>>>> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder
>
>>>>> is never wrong.
>
>>>>> --
>
>>>>> Tim McLaughlin
>
>>>>> Final Cut and Avid Editor
>
>>>>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim
>
>>>>> www.mcltim.com
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>>> **
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60
>
>>>>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)
>
>>>>>> 48.000 KHz
>
>>>>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This
>
>>>>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually
>
>>>>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but
>
>>>>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live
>
>>>>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the
>
>>>>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we
>
>>>>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD
>
>>>>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up
>
>>>>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not
>
>>>>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I
>
>>>>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render
>
>>>>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of
>
>>>>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an
>
>>>>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to
>
>>>>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to
>
>>>>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> John Moore
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> Barking Trout Productions
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> Studio City, CA
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> bigfish@
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>>
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>> ------------------------------------
>
>>>
>
>>> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>>
>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:
Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
MARKETPLACE

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RE: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

 

According to the info provided by John, datarate of his clip is around 19Mbps, which is decent for full HD h264. For comparison, DishNetwork broadcasts at around 10Mbps and commercial Bluray discs are compressed at around 45Mbps.

Question is, what were they supposed to deliver? Where there any specs provided for that? Why not DNxHD, if that's what John project is? Or perhaps ProRes, as someone else suggested?

cheers,
Bogdan Grigoresco
Sr.Engineer, ACSR DS/Unity
www.finale.tv

--- On Sat, 10/22/11, Andi Meek <kwikpasta@hotmail.com> wrote:

From: Andi Meek <kwikpasta@hotmail.com>
Subject: RE: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?
To: avid-l2@yahoogroups.com
Date: Saturday, October 22, 2011, 10:55 AM

Bring up the inspector (Apple+I or Ctrl+I).  this will tell you the data rate.  The lower the data rate, the higher the compression, the smaller the file, what data rate have they used to compress the file?  For an HD frame size anything below 4500kbps is asking for trouble.  H.264 is VBR I think so it probably didn't save them any time encoding it, it may have taken them more time than if they used a CBR codec like ProRes, especially if they did more than one pass.  Likewise if there's lots of noise all over the frame then using Animation wouldn't be a great option either as the run length encoding that animation uses only compresses efficiently if there is not much changing from frame to frame.  I would have thought that the best option would have been Prores HQ or completely uncompressed.  Ask for it again, they're a graphics company so they should know better and if they don't then they should learn a lesson!

Cheers,

Andi

To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
From: bigfish@pacbell.net
Date: Sat, 22 Oct 2011 04:54:24 +0000
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: H.264 File Size seems low?

 

   
     
     
      Saving it from a small original isn't really going to gain me anything.  I just want to make sure I'm not getting an inferior product.  I'm just not use to a file being this small for 24 secs of 1080I.  But from what others have said it's not that uncommon.  This is a graphic open title sequence so it shouldn't be delivered in an overly compressed form in my opinion.  I can't see any problems with it but they put a bunch of noise effect on the video so it's really hard to tell.  A part of me feels like I've just been handed a VHS tape for my graphic master but with a file I can only go by the file size as an indicator of how compressed it might be.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@...> wrote:

>

>

>

> John, if you're worried, save it out as ProRes HQ.

>

> B

>

>

> Benjamin Hershleder

> http://ContactBen.com

> http://Hershleder.com

>

> Wear It In Post!

> Fun T-shirts, mousepads, mugs & more

> for Post Production Professionals

> http://www.WearItInPost.com

>

> On Oct 21, 2011, at 9:24 PM, James Culbertson wrote:

>

> > That's not a particularly low data rate for well compressed H.264.  Some content at that length could be taken down substantially below 10 MB if it is clean.

> >

> > It really depends on a lot of variables.

> >

> > James

> >

> >

> > On Oct 21, 2011, at 8:32 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:

> >

> >> Finder Info shows the same size as QT. It just seems like a low number for 24 secs of 1080I video.

> >>

> >> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Tim McLaughlin <mcltim.156@> wrote:

> >>>

> >>> Forget what Quicktime says - what dies the Finder say? Get info on the file.

> >>>

> >>> I've found Quicktime to be just flat-out WRONG a lot of the time. The Finder

> >>> is never wrong.

> >>> --

> >>> Tim McLaughlin

> >>> Final Cut and Avid Editor

> >>> http://vimeo.com/mcltim

> >>> www.mcltim.com

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> On Fri, Oct 21, 2011 at 7:02 PM, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:

> >>>

> >>>> **

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>> I have a 24 second .mov file for final delivery and the file size is 57.60

> >>>> MB according to QT 7. Format is H.264 1920x1080. Millions AAC. Stereo (LR)

> >>>> 48.000 KHz

> >>>> FPS: 29.97. This seems really small for 24 secs of 1080I HD video. This

> >>>> is video with noise to make it look like a 70's/80's sitcom open. I usually

> >>>> expect around a gig a minute for full res files, obviously this varies but

> >>>> my ball park says it should be around 400MB not 57. The video is live

> >>>> action stuff so it's not some super optimized graphic element. I'm told the

> >>>> graphics company are young kids so you decide what that means. I said we

> >>>> need an uncompressed .mov in animation at best or prores. This is for an HD

> >>>> 1080I 59.94 HDCam delivery to a cable network so I think this file isn't up

> >>>> to snuff. Given all the noise and grain crap in the video it might not

> >>>> really make much difference but I want a bigger file to compare. Am I

> >>>> nuts? I hate to think that the graphics company is trying to save render

> >>>> time and upload time at the expense of quality. I don't usually think of

> >>>> H.264 as the proper format to deliver graphic elements for an

> >>>> online edit but I'm sure there are many flavors of H.264 I'm just use to

> >>>> getting highly compressed versions for approval. Any insight as to

> >>>> something I'm overlooking here would be appreciated.

> >>>>

> >>>> John Moore

> >>>>

> >>>> Barking Trout Productions

> >>>>

> >>>> Studio City, CA

> >>>>

> >>>> bigfish@

> >>>>

> >>>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>>

> >>>

> >>>

> >>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >>>

> >>

> >>

> >

> >

> >

> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

> >

> >

> >

> > ------------------------------------

> >

> > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

> > Yahoo! Groups Links

> >

> >

> >

>

>

>

> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

>

   
     

   
   

                            

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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