Saturday, August 31, 2013

Re: [Avid-L2] Trick for deleting unused audio tracks in AMA material

Tks. Like.


On Sat, Aug 31, 2013 at 5:30 PM, <tcurren@aol.com> wrote:

> **
>
>
>
> http://24p.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/ama-audio-track-modify.pdfOr <<
> http://tinyurl.com/kzuooos>>
>
>


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[Avid-L2] Trick for deleting unused audio tracks in AMA material

 
__,_._,___

Friday, August 30, 2013

[Avid-L2] Re: A goodbye; Selling my copy of MC7 + Dongle

 

You do have to shutdown the Euphonics Control software to allow the Artist Color to work with the Baselight plugin. However, I have not had to disable the Euphonics Controller within Symphony.

The last time I spent any appreciable amount of time using the Baselight plugin -- it was on a Mac and I was getting around 3 fps out of an Avid Mojo DX.

I discussed this with Martin at NAB and he said that external monitoring had formerly worked much better in the past -- but that a change instituted by Avid (maybe v.6?) broke it.

I am now on the Windows version of the Baselight plugin, on an Avid qualified PC platform with Mojo DX -- and I am getting ZERO frames per second. In short, I can see image modifications -- but clips will not play on the external monitor while the Baselight plugin is open.

If I come across as being endlessly cranky about Avid not upgrading their tools -- and also not providing 3rd party plugin developers with an architecture to allow them to fill-in Media Composers shortcomings -- this is the reason why.

How can I possibly use the Baselight plugin in a professional environment? Symphony's 20th century CC limitation are not the answer either -- and don't even get me started on using the Artist Color with Symphony.

Someone recently posted that Avid uses a "Good Enough" development approach. I believe this is largely true. Unfortunately, their idea of "Good Enough" does not match mine -- nor anyone else I know.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Reeve <dylan@...> wrote:
>
> For some reason Filmlight appear to have had to reverse engineer the
> Euphonix protocol. They peer directly with the panel rather than
> interfacing with it though the Euphonix control software. In my case that
> meant I had to disable the panel in Symphony, and then also shutdown the
> Euphonix software on my system. It's possible some of that wasn't necessary
> though, I'm not totally sure.
>
> Seeing as I barely even bother with the Artist Color panel in Symphony and
> don't often fire up Resolve it was no biggie for me. Might be annoying if I
> were using the panel more frequently.
>
> Dylan Reeve
> http://dylanreeve.com/
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@...> wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > You mention something I hadn't considered. My artist color panel talks to
> > both Avid and Resolve depending on which I'm running. With both apps
> > running I haven't tried to see if panel control shifts based on the
> > currently active program. What happens when launching into the baselight
> > plug in UI? What typr of hoops let the two work in harmony. Given how
> > useless the panel is in Avid it wouldn't be a great loss to have to
> > dedicate the panel to baselight solely.
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Reeve <dylan@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes the Baselight plugin does interface with the Avid Artist panel well
> > > (better than Symphony, not quite as well as Resolve IMHO) but there's
> > some
> > > hoops to jump through in terms of getting it to - it can't share the
> > panel
> > > with Avid.
> > >
> > > I had 25fps playback with simple grades using 2-3 layers via my Nitris
> > DX.
> > >
> > > Dylan Reeve
> > > http://dylanreeve.com/
> > >
> > >
> > > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:07 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@> wrote:
> > >
> > > > **
> >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > According to this thread a while back"
> > > >
> > > > http://community.avid.com/forums/t/112172.aspx?PageIndex=1
> > > >
> > > > I was under the impression that the baselight not only interfaced with
> > the
> > > > Avid Color Panel with proper response and sensitvity it also showed the
> > > > output through the SDI output of the Avid. Is this not the case. I
> > realize
> > > > you are mentioning real time playout but does the plugin at least show
> > the
> > > > correction on the frame you are parked on while you adjust? The
> > > > aforementioned thread suggests yes but now I'm wondering.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "blafarm" <blafarm@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > That would be my wish as well -- but, unfortunately, it seems to be a
> > > > fantasy that is not destined to come true.
> > > > >
> > > > > Curiously, Avid's development model is an unholy mix of refusing to
> > > > upgrade toolsets over a period of 10-15 years -- while at the same
> > time,
> > > > not providing a truly robust architecture to empower 3rd plugin
> > developers.
> > > > >
> > > > > For example, aside from the relational limitations, the last time I
> > used
> > > > the Baselight plugin you couldn't monitor the output over HD-SDI in
> > real
> > > > time (I've seen it as low as 3 FPS). Apparently, Filmlight has
> > repeatedly
> > > > asked for this to be addressed -- but to no avail.
> > > > >
> > > > > So you are making decisions based on a small image on a computer
> > monitor
> > > > (RGB color space, Truelight or not). Even worse, you have 3 or 4
> > clients
> > > > leaning over your shoulder attempting to see what you are doing.
> > > > >
> > > > > You can't have it both ways: You can't ignore toolsets for a decade
> > or
> > > > longer -- and not at least give your 3rd party developers the means to
> > > > take-up your slack and make the product 'whole' -- even if it's at an
> > > > additional cost to your users.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Reeve <dylan@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My only real complaint with the 7.0 release - no impovement on
> > colour
> > > > > > correction. The workflow is so good, the tools are so mediocre.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > My current wish is that they find a way to let Filmlight hook into
> > the
> > > > > > workflow parts (relational correction, CC mode) with the Baselight
> > > > plugin.
> > > > > > That would be ideal!
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Dylan Reeve
> > > > > > http://dylanreeve.com/
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Terence Curren <tcurren@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > > **
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "fordtimelord" <mattczak@>
> > wrote:
> > > > > > > "...although I wish they had moved into this decade along with
> > me in
> > > > color
> > > > > > > correction. "
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > Me too!
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Panasonic AJ-SD-93 Deck Control

 

Dom Q. Silverio wrote:

> As long as you use Digital Cut. Straight playback may drop frames without
> warning.

Yes, thanks. That, too. Digital Cut; but, set to Local machine control.
Hit record and play on the deck when the yellow light in the Digital Cut
tool starts blinking.

-Jeff

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ideas For MC Editors

I've been using a method like this since I started using Avid. I pretty
much never have to move my left hand since everything that I use can fit
onto one side of the keyboard (including the shift modified keys). I used
to be gamer so JKL is actually on ASD since that's where the hand always
rests (A=left, S=back, D=right, W=forward). I've recently been more
involved in the effects side, so now I use the right side of the keyboard
for all of that stuff, including redundant keys that are already on the
left side like FF/RW just so I don't have to move my hand back until I'm
out of effect mode.

Still figuring it all out though. I try not to get stuck with the same
configuration as my methods are constantly evolving.


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 6:55 AM, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@veralith.com>wrote:

> It just means that they move someplace else, not that you lose them.
>
> I have FFWD on TAB and REW on shift-TAB (which I almost never use)
>
> You could also put FFWD and REW on the shift keys "underneath" the
> left-handed "JKL" functionality.
>
> I have been preaching this separation of hands to a bunch of companies
> I've done instruction with. My personal keyboard has JKL at <>?, but it
> doesn't feel good, but I've been hesitant to change a keyboard setting that
> I've had for 20+ years. I also espouse the idea of separating your hands
> physically by moving JKL to the opposite side of the keyboard in the book
> I'm just finishing.... just not quite practicing what I'm preaching... The
> book, of course shows many ways of doing many things. This separation thing
> is just one of the "If it works for you" ideas.
>
> Steve
>
>
>
> On Aug 30, 2013, at 3:00 AM, Dylan Reeve <dylan@dylan.wibble.net> wrote:
>
> > It's interesting. I use A and S for REW and FF so I'd not easily be able
> to
> > give up SDF for the JKL functionality.
> >
> > Also I saw that image tweeted a few times - in the thumbnail preview the
> > arm holding the mouse with the arc of text below it looks a little bit
> > like.... well.... a purple penis.
> >
> > Or maybe it's just me. If it's just me I'd rather not explore it any
> > further.
> >
> > Dylan Reeve
> > http://dylanreeve.com/
> >
> >
> > On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@contactben.com
> >wrote:
> >
> >>
> >>
> >> A few ideas…
> >> http://tinyurl.com/editor-ideas
> >>
> >> And, in before "Wacom tablet" ;)
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >>
> >> Benjamin
> >> ----
> >> Benjamin Hershleder
> >> Book: http://tinyurl.com/avidmc-book
> >> Site: http://ContactBen.com
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> ------------------------------------
> >>
> >> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:
> >> http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> >> Yahoo! Groups Links
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:
> http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:
> http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: More folks are panning the 4K push

 

On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 7:26 AM, Terence Curren <tcurren@aol.com> wrote:

> PS: Would you agree I was correct on my 3D prediction?
>
You are were completely right on your 3D prediction. 3D sucks. ^_^

> How much further along would MC / Symphony be now if they hadn't blown all
> those resources on the rarely needed 3D feature set?
>
I hardly think 3D is the reason that Avid never got around to pushing
additional innovation or improving upon certain toolsets. They said "good
enough" and never looked back. "Good enough" seems to be their standard
method of operation on many of the products in the last 15 years...

That's why the basic title tool hasn't been updated in nearly 15 years.
Unless you count soft drop shadows.
That's why the color correction tools haven't seen a significant update in
over 10 years.
That's why Symphony is dead.
That's why DS is dead.

For those of you that continue to rely on the Avid ecosystem, I hope that
some significant changes are in the pipeline.
--
Tim McLaughlin
Final Cut, Avid and Premiere Pro Editor
http://vimeo.com/mcltim

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ideas For MC Editors

It just means that they move someplace else, not that you lose them.

I have FFWD on TAB and REW on shift-TAB (which I almost never use)

You could also put FFWD and REW on the shift keys "underneath" the left-handed "JKL" functionality.

I have been preaching this separation of hands to a bunch of companies I've done instruction with. My personal keyboard has JKL at <>?, but it doesn't feel good, but I've been hesitant to change a keyboard setting that I've had for 20+ years. I also espouse the idea of separating your hands physically by moving JKL to the opposite side of the keyboard in the book I'm just finishing.... just not quite practicing what I'm preaching... The book, of course shows many ways of doing many things. This separation thing is just one of the "If it works for you" ideas.

Steve



On Aug 30, 2013, at 3:00 AM, Dylan Reeve <dylan@dylan.wibble.net> wrote:

> It's interesting. I use A and S for REW and FF so I'd not easily be able to
> give up SDF for the JKL functionality.
>
> Also I saw that image tweeted a few times - in the thumbnail preview the
> arm holding the mouse with the arc of text below it looks a little bit
> like.... well.... a purple penis.
>
> Or maybe it's just me. If it's just me I'd rather not explore it any
> further.
>
> Dylan Reeve
> http://dylanreeve.com/
>
>
> On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@contactben.com>wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> A few ideas…
>> http://tinyurl.com/editor-ideas
>>
>> And, in before "Wacom tablet" ;)
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Benjamin
>> ----
>> Benjamin Hershleder
>> Book: http://tinyurl.com/avidmc-book
>> Site: http://ContactBen.com
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:
>> http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>



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Re: [Avid-L2] Panasonic AJ-SD-93 Deck Control

 

As long as you use Digital Cut. Straight playback may drop frames without warning.

DQS

On Aug 30, 2013, at 8:30 AM, Jeff Young <jymedia.com@gmail.com> wrote:

> Dom Q. Silverio wrote:
>
>> "1. The AJ-SD93 will record the output from a nonlinear editor. Adding
>> optional accessories will not enable insert editing capability."
>>
>>
>> http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/AJ-SD93.asp
>
> This is how I get timecode accurate outputs when crash recording to an
> AJ-HD1200A deck:
>
> Use an XLR Female to RCA Male cable, and an RCA to BNC adapter, to connect
> the LTC OUT of the Avid BOB to the LTC IN on the deck. Then, put the deck
> in external time code, and the deck will chase your Avid sequence timecode.
>
> -Jeff
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Panasonic AJ-SD-93 Deck Control

 

Dom Q. Silverio wrote:

> "1. The AJ-SD93 will record the output from a nonlinear editor. Adding
> optional accessories will not enable insert editing capability."
>
>
> http://www.panasonic.com/business/provideo/AJ-SD93.asp

This is how I get timecode accurate outputs when crash recording to an
AJ-HD1200A deck:

Use an XLR Female to RCA Male cable, and an RCA to BNC adapter, to connect
the LTC OUT of the Avid BOB to the LTC IN on the deck. Then, put the deck
in external time code, and the deck will chase your Avid sequence timecode.

-Jeff

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RE: [Avid-L2] Re: More folks are panning the 4K push

 

" PS: Would you agree I was correct on my 3D prediction?"

Ahh, but on that one most of us thought the same thing. I never believed 3D
would last, and time is proving that to be correct.

I DO believe 4k is here to stay. And get bigger, probably. 8k anyone?

Tony

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[Avid-L2] Re: More folks are panning the 4K push

 

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John Heiser <jpheiser@...> wrote:

"What if the clients paying your bills want to see it? Would you try to talk them out of it because YOU think it's pointless? "

If they are willing to pay more for something they can't see, I would provide it, but not until I pointed out what I perceive to be their folly.

My goal in life is not to make the biggest profit regardless of the consequences. At the end of my run, I want feel good about how I have lived my life. If I truly believed I would be serving the story, and therefore the audience by providing 4K in the home, I would be one of it's biggest proponents.

But I don't believe that, and I fear we are going to sacrifice a chance to actually provide a better quality, less compressed, higher bit rate, richer chroma viewing experience at home for the chance to chase unseeable resolution in the pursuit of more dollars for TV manufacturers.

I do believe, and I feel I have laid out a case that, in the matter of4K TV at home, the public will NOT be duped this time.

PS: Would you agree I was correct on my 3D prediction? How much further along would MC / Symphony be now if they hadn't blown all those resources on the rarely needed 3D feature set?

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[Avid-L2] Re: More folks are panning the 4K push

 

Wait let's not bring dogs and there possible frame rate limitations into this debate. I could not visually iChat with my dog a year or so ago when we were discussing if dogs only see certain higher frame rates when TVs started boasting higher refresh rates. With no audio, and even with a visible treat in my hand, Rubin ignored me. I tested on a mac system so perhaps a PC might have yielded different results or even a different bread of dog. Hmmmmmmmmm

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John Heiser <jpheiser@...> wrote:
>
> On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 7:44 PM, Terence Curren <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
> > to deliver a product no one will be able to see
>
>
> What if the clients paying your bills want to see it? Would you try to talk
> them out of it because YOU think it's pointless? Your competitors might
> appreciate that.
>
> Just a little snark here, for its own sake. I don't have a dog in this hunt
> yet.
>
> ----
> *john heiser | senior video editor*
> *o2**ideas*
> birmingham, alabama, USA
> http://vimeo.com/johnheiser
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Ideas For MC Editors

It's interesting. I use A and S for REW and FF so I'd not easily be able to
give up SDF for the JKL functionality.

Also I saw that image tweeted a few times - in the thumbnail preview the
arm holding the mouse with the arc of text below it looks a little bit
like.... well.... a purple penis.

Or maybe it's just me. If it's just me I'd rather not explore it any
further.

Dylan Reeve
http://dylanreeve.com/


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 3:46 AM, Benjamin Hershleder <Ben@contactben.com>wrote:

>
>
> A few ideas…
> http://tinyurl.com/editor-ideas
>
> And, in before "Wacom tablet" ;)
>
> Cheers,
>
> Benjamin
> ----
> Benjamin Hershleder
> Book: http://tinyurl.com/avidmc-book
> Site: http://ContactBen.com
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at:
> http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A goodbye; Selling my copy of MC7 + Dongle

For some reason Filmlight appear to have had to reverse engineer the
Euphonix protocol. They peer directly with the panel rather than
interfacing with it though the Euphonix control software. In my case that
meant I had to disable the panel in Symphony, and then also shutdown the
Euphonix software on my system. It's possible some of that wasn't necessary
though, I'm not totally sure.

Seeing as I barely even bother with the Artist Color panel in Symphony and
don't often fire up Resolve it was no biggie for me. Might be annoying if I
were using the panel more frequently.

Dylan Reeve
http://dylanreeve.com/


On Fri, Aug 30, 2013 at 12:24 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

> **
>
>
> You mention something I hadn't considered. My artist color panel talks to
> both Avid and Resolve depending on which I'm running. With both apps
> running I haven't tried to see if panel control shifts based on the
> currently active program. What happens when launching into the baselight
> plug in UI? What typr of hoops let the two work in harmony. Given how
> useless the panel is in Avid it wouldn't be a great loss to have to
> dedicate the panel to baselight solely.
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Reeve <dylan@...> wrote:
> >
> > Yes the Baselight plugin does interface with the Avid Artist panel well
> > (better than Symphony, not quite as well as Resolve IMHO) but there's
> some
> > hoops to jump through in terms of getting it to - it can't share the
> panel
> > with Avid.
> >
> > I had 25fps playback with simple grades using 2-3 layers via my Nitris
> DX.
> >
> > Dylan Reeve
> > http://dylanreeve.com/
> >
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 29, 2013 at 8:07 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@...> wrote:
> >
> > > **
>
> > >
> > >
> > > According to this thread a while back"
> > >
> > > http://community.avid.com/forums/t/112172.aspx?PageIndex=1
> > >
> > > I was under the impression that the baselight not only interfaced with
> the
> > > Avid Color Panel with proper response and sensitvity it also showed the
> > > output through the SDI output of the Avid. Is this not the case. I
> realize
> > > you are mentioning real time playout but does the plugin at least show
> the
> > > correction on the frame you are parked on while you adjust? The
> > > aforementioned thread suggests yes but now I'm wondering.
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "blafarm" <blafarm@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > That would be my wish as well -- but, unfortunately, it seems to be a
> > > fantasy that is not destined to come true.
> > > >
> > > > Curiously, Avid's development model is an unholy mix of refusing to
> > > upgrade toolsets over a period of 10-15 years -- while at the same
> time,
> > > not providing a truly robust architecture to empower 3rd plugin
> developers.
> > > >
> > > > For example, aside from the relational limitations, the last time I
> used
> > > the Baselight plugin you couldn't monitor the output over HD-SDI in
> real
> > > time (I've seen it as low as 3 FPS). Apparently, Filmlight has
> repeatedly
> > > asked for this to be addressed -- but to no avail.
> > > >
> > > > So you are making decisions based on a small image on a computer
> monitor
> > > (RGB color space, Truelight or not). Even worse, you have 3 or 4
> clients
> > > leaning over your shoulder attempting to see what you are doing.
> > > >
> > > > You can't have it both ways: You can't ignore toolsets for a decade
> or
> > > longer -- and not at least give your 3rd party developers the means to
> > > take-up your slack and make the product 'whole' -- even if it's at an
> > > additional cost to your users.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Dylan Reeve <dylan@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > My only real complaint with the 7.0 release - no impovement on
> colour
> > > > > correction. The workflow is so good, the tools are so mediocre.
> > > > >
> > > > > My current wish is that they find a way to let Filmlight hook into
> the
> > > > > workflow parts (relational correction, CC mode) with the Baselight
> > > plugin.
> > > > > That would be ideal!
> > > > >
> > > > > Dylan Reeve
> > > > > http://dylanreeve.com/
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Tue, Aug 27, 2013 at 4:24 PM, Terence Curren <tcurren@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "fordtimelord" <mattczak@>
> wrote:
> > > > > > "...although I wish they had moved into this decade along with
> me in
> > > color
> > > > > > correction. "
> > > > > >
> > > > > > Me too!
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


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Thursday, August 29, 2013

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: More folks are panning the 4K push

 

Amen.

Owen's iphone

On Aug 29, 2013, at 3:41 PM, "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com> wrote:

> You do know that as a flame guy I run a 16 bit half float pipeline as standard and that most of my complex work is full float in nuke?
>
> I don't want resolution at the expense if color depth. I've said all along in this thread that I want it all. Higher res. Float. Higher fps. Stereo.
>
> I'm not advocating everyone needs everything but there is a segmenting the market where 4k is hugely advantageous and that's commercisl finishing.
>
> So if I'm talking finishing why do I want a 4k editorial workflow? Well us massively more fun in these file based days to be able to go from. 'Offline' to 'online' with a change of attitude rather than a relink and more. Now with avid fusion I can be delivering final comps back into the editors offline timeline - there's an interesting workflow. Would you prefer I sent low res renders back for delivery?
>
> Finish once deliver many times has been the cry for years - well I do tvcs that go to cinema regularly as well as with 8-10 country deliverables. Do I adopt the lowest common denominator for production or the highest?
>
> The best thing about file based finishing is escaping vtr colour depths and frame rates - high speed shots used to be a pain now phantom files are an every day occurrence. Good job the 4k phantom is a reality.
>
> Yes it will cost more and yes some people will choose to ignore it but so did HD and I've not finished a tvc in SD in close to 10 years.
>
> My career has been:
> 6 years of analogue online SD (cmx)
> 13 years digital SD (harry henry flame)
> 10 years digital HD (flame smoke)
> So it's really not like we're not due a change.
>
> In that same period I've gone from off lining on a steenbeck to avid msp, mc, symphony, FCP and back to symphony and now mc again. With home ownership of avid mcexpress, avid dv and now smoke.
>
> I've seen us move from grading in dubner, digi grade, amigo and topsy, through sunburst, pogle, davinci 422 then 888 and forwards to baselight and resolve. Never had a Copernicus... But all these areas of post and indeed production have one trajectory. More. More color depth and more resolution Snd now we're finally seeing movement on frame rate for deliverables.
>
> And I say good. More is good. Much more is better. Even more than that us better still. I want tv with do much resolution I can smell the food shots. I want color of such depth it's like being there.
>
> There's a book called Broadcasting since 1900 written in 1950 by the first chief engineer of the bbc. Read it if you can. He's retiring but his excitement about the possibilities of future advancement is intoxicating. Course he's excited about how good the ballet will look in colour rather than big brother but that's not the point. The future should be better and it should always be exciting.
>
> It's also always expensive to be on the cutting edge. Nonlinear editing used to involve Winchester disks (actually Fujitsu smd drives) the Harry had a whole rack to give me 80 seconds of SD to play with and cost a million pounds for the full suite if Harry paintbox encore and mirage. Every single one of us has better performance than that room on our laptops today.
>
> I once paid 50,000 us for 2 gig if dual interleaved ram for an onyx 2 to run flame. Not one of us has less than 2 gig in a computer we check email on today.
>
> So saying hard disk capacity is the break point or ram for 4k is ludicrous. Look at USB sticks. The average stick in my office is 64 gig and I don't think you can buy less than 8 or 16 these days. 4k masters in your pocket right there.
>
> So it's happening. Yes some people on some tvs might not see the benefit. But there will be people who can and one of those people will be me while I'm doing my work.
>
> Hopefully a lot of you guys will come along too, the future after all is still pretty exciting.
>
> Mike
>
> On 29 Aug, 2013, at 1:10 AM, "prberg2" <prberg2@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> > I have not yet done any h265 tests on a full size display under normal viewing conditions. So I can't comment on that. Although I'm confident that newer codecs will have the potential to improve image quality.
> >
> > So you didn't comment on my desire to improve the final quality for viewers. Do you not think it's just as important to improve the other aspects of the image (compression, bit depth, color space, etc)? I'm just thinking that with our existing delivery pipelines (and the ones in the near future) if we used the new codecs on our 1920x1080 content it would make them look even better.
> >
> > That is where I think we should focus our attention. Are you saying that you would choose an image with higher resolution but lower quality otherwise (higher compression, lower bit depth, etc) over a HD image with higher quality (lower compression, higher bit depth, etc)? You choose more over better? Personally I'm a big fan of quality over quantity.
> >
> > I've seen this on Blu-ray discs. They can cram more on the disc and you get 'more'. But they have to reduce the quality and increase compression to do it. I'm much more in favor of improving quality and not just cramming in more pixels (which again I have not seen proof that you will actually be able to resolve on your home television).
> >
> > Peter
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > Have you seen h265 tests?
> > >
> > > Megapixel domestic cameras are not what we are talking about it - we're talking about delivering more if the resolution many of my clients already come in with.
> > >
> > > Mike
> > >
> > > On 28 Aug, 2013, at 8:13 AM, "prberg2" <prberg2@...> wrote:
> > >
> > > > This is the most depressing thread? I have been enjoying it and it's very interesting to get everyone's perspective.
> > > >
> > > > So you talk about picture quality. Let's talk about picture quality shall we? It seems like you are focusing on quantity over quality. I would guess that you were upgrading your DSLR camera every time they increased the megapixels (more resolution is better right?). The problem with that, is that more pixels does not always mean higher quality. It can mean the opposite actually. With the increased megapixels, there is often increased noise in images. Also many cameras had more megapixels, but inferior lenses. I can tell you that my 6MP DSLR took MUCH better photos than my friends 14MP point and shoot camera. He had more pixels (and his camera was newer), but my images were sharper and had much better quality (confirmed by my very friend with that camera, and many of my family and friends who loved the photos from that 6MP DSLR). Now sensors have finally caught up and images have improved as a result. But it took about 10 years for the higher resolution noisier sensors to improve and get there.
> > > >
> > > > I think many of us here are fighting for quality, and the push to UHD/2160p/4K/8K could actually set us back in terms of beautiful image quality (and I'm speaking mostly to home entertainment and not so much about theatrical presentation). It's going to take more time for the consumer bandwidth pipelines (where most of the content is actually viewed) to increase on a major level. Until the pipeline receives a major upgrade (Think HDMI 3.0, Fiber internet to the home, etc.) the push to UHD/2160p/4K/8K will actually reduce quality. I'm sure compression will improve with time, but I will bet that it will not improve enough to compensate for the extra pixels (which you probably can't see anyways at normal TV viewing distances). Thus we will see more blocky compressed video (which I think looks absolutely terrible).
> > > >
> > > > I would much rather see an increase in actual video quality. To achieve that, we need much better compression all the way to the consumer's viewing device (TV in many cases). We need to abandon 8bit video and move to higher bit depths. That will reduce banding, and other video noise. A wider color space would also help improve picture quality.
> > > >
> > > > I was able to do a side by side test at my local electronics store. I saw the Sony 65" UHD set, setup near a same size HD set. It was showing the latest Spider Man movie. In all honesty, the UHD set did not look ANY better at all. There was alot of compression noise, and some strange smearing going on. Also the black levels were not as good as the Plasma set I was comparing it to. So to me, the UHD set had lower quality.
> > > >
> > > > Now when we get to the point where the compression ratio, bit depth, contrast ratio, black level, etc. are better on the UHD sets (or 8K or whatever it is by then) I would consider buying one for my living room.
> > > >
> > > > For now (and likely the next 5-8 years) I will stick with my plan on buying a great OLED 1080p set (once the prices drop to more reasonable levels). I will continue to push for higher bit depths, lower compression, and wider color spaces. I just don't think that UHD/2160p/4K/8K means higher quality for home entertainment.
> > > >
> > > > I hope my comments don't depress you. It's just good debate, which is what makes the L2 such a great group!
> > > >
> > > > -Peter Berg
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, mike parsons <mikeparsons.tv@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > I think this thread has been one of the most depressing I have ever read on
> > > > > the Avid-L
> > > > >
> > > > > For a group of forward thinking industry leading creatives and engineers I
> > > > > do not for one second understand the Luddite sentiments expressed.
> > > > ...
> > > > > People care about picture quality. They really do. As pros we might care
> > > > > more but its not just marketing hype that drives people to buy more mega
> > > > > pixels than they need. Its a desire to document their lives and their
> > > > > experiences with as much fidelity as possible. Its a desire to get as close
> > > > > to the experience of being there at a sporting event on their 55 inch
> > > > > plasma. Its a desire for an immersive entertainment experience. And for
> > > > > that folks you can never have too many pixels or too big a TV. You can
> > > > > never have too big a tv or too much money.
> > > > >
> > > > > Its made me sad to hear smart people here saying 'I'll never need to edit
> > > > > 4K'. Well you don't actually need to edit HD. AVR70 is perfectly good for
> > > > > editing decisions it is after all 'broadcast quality'. Im particularly sad
> > > > > to hear 'tv manufacturers just want to move product' because whilst at some
> > > > > fundamental business level thats true I'm pretty sure thats not what drives
> > > > > the engineers when developing new technology. From spinning disks to Philo
> > > > > and his brother in law blowing glass to shadow mask and trinitron, plasma,
> > > > > OLED, LCDs and onwards display technology has been a constant unbroken line
> > > > > of technological leaps the like of which has not been seen in many other
> > > > > industries. 4K is just the next step down that path.
> > > > ...
> > > > > At the end of the day I'm with Barry Stevens, I'm glad my career lasted
> > > > > from composite analogue vtrs to float images off compact flash cards. I've
> > > > > enjoyed the ride and I'm looking forward as eagerly to the next leap as the
> > > > > ones we've all taken so far. Come on guys, get on board.
> > > > >
> > > > > Mike
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > On Sun, Aug 25, 2013 at 11:36 PM, Terence Curren <tcurren@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > > **
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, owen <owen@> wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > > > "With all that power, you'll be able to do things like seamlessly edit
> > > > > > full-resolution 4K video while simultaneously rendering effects in the
> > > > > > background"
> > > > > >
> > > > > > I can't wait to see how you are going to do that over thunderbolt. And
> > > > > > what type of drive array you will need.
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>

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