Saturday, September 12, 2020

Re: [Avid-L2] Artist Color Panel very degraded in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6 vs. Resolve 15 OS 10.12.6?

After spending another night tweaking it seems it's my expansion chassis that is causing the steppyness.  If I turn off the expansion chassis, that contains two TitanX (2015) GPUs and just have the GTX-980 Ti 6GB in the tower then the Artist Color and the BM Mini work fine.  Also I found that with the expansion chassis off Avid will properly launch on my 10.13.6 startup drive, with the expansion chassis on Avid stalled at initializing composer windows when running the nVidia webdrivers.  Also Avid link finally displays all the other tabs with pictures with the expansion chassis off, this happens on both the 10.13.6 and the 10.12.6.

I took one of the two TitanX GPUs out and the steppyness seemed less but still unusable.  If I run Resolve 15.3.1 there is no steppyness with either panel and they work on both the 10.12.6 and the 10.13.6.  So Resolve 16.0 and up to 16.2.6 have the steppyness.

I'm aware that nVidia support on Mac OSX starting at 10.13.6 is flawed.  Even if I manually set Resolve to only use the GTX-980 Ti for processing if the expansion chassis is on the steppyness occurs in Resolve 16.X, I tried both 16.0 and 16.2.6 and one in the middle of the pack.  So it would seem the most viable option is to stick with my 10.12.6 startup which will only allow me to install Resolve 15.3.1 or other versions of 15.X because it will also launch Avid with the nVidia webdrivers on.  I've read that the GTX-980 Ti  6GB is basically a TitanX with half the Vram but I am wondering if I had matching GTX-980 Ti GPUs in the expansion chassis if that might make things play nicer.  I learned from Dom that Resolve will take the GPU with the least amount of Vram and I apply that limit to all other GPUs.  That seemed to ring true in my tests.  So I wonder if it's the mere presence of GPUs in the expansion chassis that causes the problem or if the absolute type of GPU.  It was pointed out in this thread that my original GTX-680 was a Kepler chipset and the TitanXs are Maxwell chipsets.  That's part of the reason I went with the GTX-980 Ti because it's a Maxwell chipset.  Clearly there is more going on.  I might try putting the GTX-680 in the expansion chassis to see if the steppyness re-occurs.  Of course that wouldn't make any practical sense because then Resolve would only use 2GB Vram on both GPUs for a total of 4GB but it might point to the possibility that perhaps GTX-980 Tis in the expansion chassis would work better.

The only other factor I can think of is the expansion chassis is connected on a 3M pigtail to the tower.  I also have a 1M pigtail.  The manufacturer told me both lengths meet spec and there should be no performance issues with the longer pigtail.  I'm just thinking perhaps the cable delay due to extra length might also be a factor.  It would be physically difficult to use the shorter cable but if I put on my big boy pants it might be worth a shot.

It seems the God's of OS/Technology change are not in my court on this stuff.


On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 09:08 AM, editbruboy wrote:

I have a setup with Resolve 15 on Win 7 and the Artist Color is working fine with Eucon 3.6.1

Reading your plight made me decide to see how well the Artist Color would work across the network on another machine.

I therefore installed Eucon 3.6.1 on a laptop with Win10 and Resolve 16.2.1.

Apart from an alert message from my antivirus software about one of the Eucon components (which I allowed) the install worked fine and I could see/assign my panel in the Eucon software.

I'm pleased to report that the Artist Color seems to behave exactly the same. Haven't done extensive testing, but using the three trackballs and rings seems about as responsive as I remember.

Obviously, this is on a Windows setup so I don't know what's happening with your Mac hardware/software. The only thing that is different is that I'm using an earlier version of Eucon. I don't think the later versions added any functionality to the Artist Color and was mainly aimed at improving their audio surfaces. I did read that someone had problems with their Artist Color when they (naturally) upgraded their Eucon software and went back to the earlier version.

3.6.1 might be worth a try.

Bruno


On 12/09/2020 01:30, John Moore via groups.io wrote:
I've been beating my head trying to test my Artist Color Panel in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6.  It's just awful and I don't remember it being that way before in my classes etc...  Today I went back to my 10.12.6 startup Resolve 15 and the panel is very smooth like I remembered.  Has anybody noticed the degradation of the sensitivity/perrformance of the Artist Color Panel on Resolve 16.  I'm using the same Eucon software on 10.12.6 and 10.13.6 as that hasn't been updated because the panel is EOL.  I can't install Resolve 16 on OS 10.12.6 so I can't tell if it's Resolve 16 or Eucon/10.13.6 issue.  I wish Resolve would at least let me risk installing Resolve 16 on 10.12.6.  I know this is old hardware but it works fine on the 10.12.6 startup.
 
I'm going to borrow another Artist Color Panel from a friend to doube check and also hist BM Mini panel.  It really feels like Resolve 16 may have crippled the Artist Color even though it is still an option in the pulldown menu.  Or it's OS 10.13.6/Eucon?  Nothing like herding software cats.
 
Anybody seeing what I'm seeing?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
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Re: [Avid-L2] Artist Color Panel very degraded in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6 vs. Resolve 15 OS 10.12.6?

I have a setup with Resolve 15 on Win 7 and the Artist Color is working fine with Eucon 3.6.1

Reading your plight made me decide to see how well the Artist Color would work across the network on another machine.

I therefore installed Eucon 3.6.1 on a laptop with Win10 and Resolve 16.2.1.

Apart from an alert message from my antivirus software about one of the Eucon components (which I allowed) the install worked fine and I could see/assign my panel in the Eucon software.

I'm pleased to report that the Artist Color seems to behave exactly the same. Haven't done extensive testing, but using the three trackballs and rings seems about as responsive as I remember.

Obviously, this is on a Windows setup so I don't know what's happening with your Mac hardware/software. The only thing that is different is that I'm using an earlier version of Eucon. I don't think the later versions added any functionality to the Artist Color and was mainly aimed at improving their audio surfaces. I did read that someone had problems with their Artist Color when they (naturally) upgraded their Eucon software and went back to the earlier version.

3.6.1 might be worth a try.

Bruno


On 12/09/2020 01:30, John Moore via groups.io wrote:
I've been beating my head trying to test my Artist Color Panel in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6.  It's just awful and I don't remember it being that way before in my classes etc...  Today I went back to my 10.12.6 startup Resolve 15 and the panel is very smooth like I remembered.  Has anybody noticed the degradation of the sensitivity/perrformance of the Artist Color Panel on Resolve 16.  I'm using the same Eucon software on 10.12.6 and 10.13.6 as that hasn't been updated because the panel is EOL.  I can't install Resolve 16 on OS 10.12.6 so I can't tell if it's Resolve 16 or Eucon/10.13.6 issue.  I wish Resolve would at least let me risk installing Resolve 16 on 10.12.6.  I know this is old hardware but it works fine on the 10.12.6 startup.

I'm going to borrow another Artist Color Panel from a friend to doube check and also hist BM Mini panel.  It really feels like Resolve 16 may have crippled the Artist Color even though it is still an option in the pulldown menu.  Or it's OS 10.13.6/Eucon?  Nothing like herding software cats.

Anybody seeing what I'm seeing?

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

Re: [Avid-L2] Artist Color Panel very degraded in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6 vs. Resolve 15 OS 10.12.6?

Even after borrowing a BM mini panels the steppyness is still happening on Resolve 16 latest version.  I pulled wacom, Eucon and Trackball works but no change.  I have to restore from CCC backup after removing wacom for some reason but I think the next step is to see if Resolve 15.3.1 plays nice on the 10.13.6 startup drive.  That is if it will let me install it.

On a lighter note I confirmed that OKI Dog is still open during the Pandemic but they aren't open at night like they use to be.  The night shift was gone before the Pandemic.  Hmmmm I wonder...


On Fri, Sep 11, 2020 at 05:30 PM, John Moore wrote:
I've been beating my head trying to test my Artist Color Panel in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6.  It's just awful and I don't remember it being that way before in my classes etc...  Today I went back to my 10.12.6 startup Resolve 15 and the panel is very smooth like I remembered.  Has anybody noticed the degradation of the sensitivity/perrformance of the Artist Color Panel on Resolve 16.  I'm using the same Eucon software on 10.12.6 and 10.13.6 as that hasn't been updated because the panel is EOL.  I can't install Resolve 16 on OS 10.12.6 so I can't tell if it's Resolve 16 or Eucon/10.13.6 issue.  I wish Resolve would at least let me risk installing Resolve 16 on 10.12.6.  I know this is old hardware but it works fine on the 10.12.6 startup.
 
I'm going to borrow another Artist Color Panel from a friend to doube check and also hist BM Mini panel.  It really feels like Resolve 16 may have crippled the Artist Color even though it is still an option in the pulldown menu.  Or it's OS 10.13.6/Eucon?  Nothing like herding software cats.
 
Anybody seeing what I'm seeing?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
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Friday, September 11, 2020

[Avid-L2] Artist Color Panel very degraded in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6 vs. Resolve 15 OS 10.12.6?

I've been beating my head trying to test my Artist Color Panel in Resolve 16 OS 10.13.6.  It's just awful and I don't remember it being that way before in my classes etc...  Today I went back to my 10.12.6 startup Resolve 15 and the panel is very smooth like I remembered.  Has anybody noticed the degradation of the sensitivity/perrformance of the Artist Color Panel on Resolve 16.  I'm using the same Eucon software on 10.12.6 and 10.13.6 as that hasn't been updated because the panel is EOL.  I can't install Resolve 16 on OS 10.12.6 so I can't tell if it's Resolve 16 or Eucon/10.13.6 issue.  I wish Resolve would at least let me risk installing Resolve 16 on 10.12.6.  I know this is old hardware but it works fine on the 10.12.6 startup.

I'm going to borrow another Artist Color Panel from a friend to doube check and also hist BM Mini panel.  It really feels like Resolve 16 may have crippled the Artist Color even though it is still an option in the pulldown menu.  Or it's OS 10.13.6/Eucon?  Nothing like herding software cats.

Anybody seeing what I'm seeing?

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

Wednesday, September 9, 2020

Re: [Avid-L2] Calling all (old) WGBH Editors ....

Speaking of (W)GBH...

https://www.boston.com/news/media/2020/08/31/wgbh-is-now-gbh
--
kenton van natten, post-production mercenary
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Re: [Avid-L2] Calling all (old) WGBH Editors ....

Steve is pretty easy to find. He's very active in the Avid Editors of Facebook group.
https://www.facebook.com/groups/mediacomposer/
This is his Twitter handle: @stevecutsdocs
https://www.facebook.com/steve.audette

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Tuesday, September 8, 2020

Re: [Avid-L2] Drive speed effected by cable length?

Perhaps this sheds some light seems these "custom cables" can be twice as long.

USB 2.0, 3.0, 3.1 Cable Maximum Length Limits


According to USB-IF compliance specifications, each type of USB cable length is limited as shown in Table below. In the meantime, applications such as Machine Vision, Pro AV, Medical Imaging, etc. constantly need cables that can go beyond USB-IF standard ranges. As a leading USB cable solution developer, Newnex manufactures custom passive USB cable assemblies that can go longer than the USB-IF standard length limits while maintaining an excellent signal integrity and power delivery performance.

Cable Type USB Passive Cable Length Limit
(USB-IF Standard)
USB Passive Cable Length Limit
(Newnex Custom Solutions)*
USB 2.0 5 m (16.4 ft) 10 m (32.8 ft)
USB 3.0/3.1 Gen 1 2 m (6.6 ft) 5 m (16.4 ft)
USB 3.1 Gen 2 1 m (3.3 ft) 1 m (3.3 ft)

*Note: Newnex custom USB cables are not guaranteed for working with all long range applications. Their performance may vary from case to case.

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[Avid-L2] Drive speed effected by cable length?

Hooking up a 12TB Graid to my macpro mid 2012 through a Sonnet USB 3.0 PCIe card.  I ordered some USB 3.0 type A to Type B 10 ft cables to make it easier to put the drives on top of my rack.  I also order similar USB type A to Type C, called a premium charge sync cable.

The drive test speed is horrible using the 10 foot USB Type A to Type B cable.  BM drive speed is approx 42 MB/sec.  If I go back to the original cables I had the drive speed it approx 300 MB/sec.  These speeds are for both read and write.  A bit of googling and it seems 10 ft is within spec for "Super Speed" USB 3 cables.  I order from Amazon:


John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net




I get similar performance hit using the USB type A to USB type C cables.  With Glypth SSD 4TB drives the 10 ft cables get approx 40 MB/sec while the short pigtails plugged directly into the USB 3 card yield approx 336 MB/sec.

I can see that the Type C cable says it for sync and charge so it might not be the most robust cable.  But the USB 3 Type A to Type B says it's "Super Speed" so doesn't that mean it should perform much better.  I guess going through Amazon it's hard to tell the quality of the cable manufacturer.

I really would like to run 10 ft cables to facilitate drive swapping.  Is this too much to ask for?  I think I just got poorly made cables.  Does anyone have a suggestion where to look for quality cables.  Guess I'll check with Pacific Radio.

Re: [Avid-L2] Calling all (old) WGBH Editors ....

Last I heard, Steve Audette was working at Frontline with Mike Kirk, and Mark Steele had gone to work at Harvard.  Dunno about Doug.



On Tue, Sep 8, 2020 at 6:15 PM Jef Huey <jlhueyc2@gmail.com> wrote:

Hello all,
I am currently trying to clean up an old BSP SD copy of a PBS show produced by WGBH back in 1993 - "Peter, Paul and Mommie too".  The on-line editors were Mark Steele, Doug Martin and Steve Audette.

I would love to ask a few questions if any of those three are lurking around.

Cheers,
Jef

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[Avid-L2] Calling all (old) WGBH Editors ....

Hello all,
I am currently trying to clean up an old BSP SD copy of a PBS show produced by WGBH back in 1993 - "Peter, Paul and Mommie too".  The on-line editors were Mark Steele, Doug Martin and Steve Audette.

I would love to ask a few questions if any of those three are lurking around.

Cheers,
Jef

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[Avid-L2] Avid Artist Color and Resolve?

I've had the Avid Euphonix branded Artist Color Panel for a long time but never really used it other than to test things.  I've taken it into resolve classes running iMacs and it seemed to work okay but I never really hammered on it.  I've tested it occasionally with Resolve and it seemed to work but again I never really put it through the paces as I was mostly testing connectivity.  I know it's not great but I did get it to work with the Avid baselight plugin and it seemed okay but I never spent much quality time on it.

Now I'm digging into Resolve more and I've got my mid 2012 macpro 12 core 3.46GHz GTX-680 in tower, Two TitanX GPUs in a cyclone microsystems expansion chassis and 64 GB of ram.  I turn off GPU scopes as that causes issues and I've confirmed that with my Resolve teacher.  Today the panel in Resolve 16 is super laggy and virtually unusable even though I'm only trying to use the wheels and hue offsets.  I don't recall the performance in classes on iMacs being this bad.  It's almost as bad as the way the panel works in Symphony.

I'm curious if anyone using the panel with Resolve has seen it's performance degrade with newer versions of Resolve?  My panel is old but hasn't been used much so I doubt it's mechanically defective but nothings impossible.  I'll see if I can borrow a BM panel to see if it's more responsive.

I know it's an old design but it really seem like something has gone south from how it use to work with Resolve.

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

Monday, September 7, 2020

Re: [Avid-L2] Germany SNFT Gmbh extension and dongle and nVidia Web drivers?

A few more tests and I have found for certain with the nVidia webdriver active Avid will not launch in 10.13.6 on my mid2012 MacPro 12 core 3.46GH 64GB ram.  If I click debugger at the error message Avid will launch but then gives more errors when opening a project and then crashes and quits.  Also I have found that with the nVidia webdriver active Avid link does not display many of the various tabs, it will only display profile tab until I log in then I can see the products tab but none of the others display anything.  Running the OSX default graphics driver and all the Avid link tabs/pages display properly and Avid MC 2018.12.12 starts up properly. 
 
Now I have the problem surrounded but it makes it impossible to bounce between Avid and Resolve because I need the nVidia webdriver active for it to recognize the two Titan X GPUs in the expansion chassis.
On Mon, Sep 7, 2020 at 12:43 AM, John Moore wrote:
This is very informative.  I've been running the GTX-680 2 GB with the two Titan X in expansion chassis and it has been working but things seem more quirky now that I've gone to OS 10.13.6.  It works but the desktop is weird when I drag open windows around the desktop there is a strange trailing happening.  If I then resize the window or restart finder it cleans up.  I just ordered a GTX-980TI which your doc says is maxwell which is what I believe my Titan X to be as it was purchased at the end of 2015.  Is there a way to determine the chipset through system report.  I looked but didn't see anything saying Maxwell or Kepler etc. 
Here is the model I ordered on Jan 3 2016 from B&H Photo.


EVGTXSC12GR5   GeForce GTX TITAN X Superclocked Graphics Card

I know I'm milking my old mid 2012 MacPro but at this point this is my comfort zone.  Or as we say in recovery, "The comfort of familiar pain."

On Sun, Sep 6, 2020 at 08:19 PM, Tim Gross wrote:

http://www.macvidcards.com/drivers.html

Grab the correct nvidia driver per the version of your OSX.  Don’t forget to install the separate required CUDA installer.

You CANNOT mix Kepler, Maxwell or Pascal cards in a system. All cards wether GTX or Quadro must be from the same chip family. This is due to drivers. 
  • Kepler example: K4200 + 780TI +Titan Black(2014)
  • Maxwell example: M4000 + GTX980TI + Titan-X(2015)
  • Pascal example: P4000 + GTX1070 + GTX1080

* Remember there are multiple Titan cards

  • GTX Series600 Series *(Kepler) *
    • 605, 610, 620, 625, 630, 635, 640, 645, 650, 660, 670, 680, 690
  • 700 Series (Kepler)
    • 705, 710, 720, 730, 740, 745, 750, 750TI, 760, 760TI, 770, 780, 780TI, TITAN, TITAN BLACK(2014), Titan-Z (2014)
  • 900 Series *(Maxwell) *
    • 950, 960, 970, 980, 980TI, Titan-X(2015)
  • 1000 Series (Pascal)
    • 1030,1050, 1050TI, 1060, 1070, 1070TI, 1080, 1080TI,** Titan-X*(2016) & **Titan-Xp*(2017)
  • Quadro
    • K-Series (Kepler)
      • Quadro 410, K420, K600, K620, K1200, K2000, K2000D, K2200, K4000, K4200, K5000, K5200, K6000
    • M-Series (Maxwell)
      • M2000, M4000, M5000, M6000
    • P-Series (Pascal)
      • P400, P600, P1000, P2000, P4000, P5000, P6000, Quadro GP100

 

 

 

 

On Sep 6, 2020, at 1:21 AM, John Moore via groups.io <bigfish=pacbell.net@groups.io> wrote:

I did a clean install of macos 10.13.6 and I have discovered that if I run the nVidia webdriver Avid stalls at initializing composer windows but if I go back the macos default graphics driver then Avid will launch properly and I've repeated this a couple times.  So I'm stuck with being able to have the expansion chassis TitanX GPUs be correctly recognized by the OS if I run the nVidia webdriver but then I can't launch Avid.  At least on the clean install I can bounce and not have it lock up on the Mac Startup progress bar.  I'm going to reinstall the buggered startup drive to see if I can resurrect it.  If not I'll go back to my back up clone.  Boy this is more fun than a person should have on Labrador Day Weekend.




On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 04:55 PM, John Moore wrote:
Spent some quality time with Avid Tech today to get my macpro mid 2012 12 core 3.46Ghz 64GB ram Mac OS 10.13.6 to recognize my dongle.  I had installed the sentinel driver and when I upgraded the OS from 10.12.6 to 10.13.6 back around February I could not launch MC 2018.12.7 because it would hang at initializing composer windows.  Yesterday I downloaded MC 2018.12.12 to see if it would launch but it wouldn't even begin to launch saying my license wasn't working.  The computer wasn't seeing the dongle.  Today we went through all the under the hood settings and permissions and finally was able to allow the Germany SNFT Gmbh extension in the security preferences.  Then the  computer saw the dongle.
 
When we enabled the SNFT extension the computer restarted twice but came up.  Then I could launch MC 2018.12.12 but again it hung at Initializing Composer Windows.  I googled and I saw someone had found the nVidia Web drivers were a possible conflict.  I went to the nVidia preferences and choose the OSX default driver that does work with my GTX-680 in the tower but doesn't properly recognize the two TitanX GPUs in my cyclone microsystems expansion chassis. 
 
Now the computer won't boot to that startup partition.  It stalls about a quarter or third of the way on the progress bar.  I can boot in safe mode but how do I undo what we did.
 
After we allowed the SNFT extension and the double reboot the dongle was recognized but I didn't do a restart at that point.  So now I don't know if the enabling of the SNFT is causing the issue or if when I switched to default OSX graphics driver did it or both.  Is there a way in safe mode I can set back to nVidia web driver and or can I not allow the SNFT from safe mode?  I have an old CCC clone that I will try but now I'm CCC cloning the crippled start up drive.
 
I hate the thought of a clean install but maybe it's time to bite the bullet.  Heck maybe someday I'll actually rebuild my avid settings like I should.
 
Any suggestions are welcome.  It is curious to me that I've never enabled the SNFT before because I didn't know what it was for.  I had google but I didn't find anything that suggested it was Avid related.  Perhaps my lame google skills are showing.
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

Tim Gross  |  Field Services Engineer
Advanced Systems Group, LLC
Mobile: 415-846-9447
Office: 510-654-8300
www.asgllc.com
 

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Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT


For sound, there is no difference for any framerate.

But of course there is. 

We are talking about either 
A) a 24 fps film played back at 23.976 fps, so slowed down
or  
B) a 23.976 fps film played back at 24.000 fps, so speeded up. 
The mix will need to be pulled up or down accordingly, or it will run out of sync with the picture.

For instance, if the film has been mastered to 24.000 fps, there will be 48000 Hz sound deliverables that run in sync with the picture as long as that runs 24.000 fps. If the picture is slowed down to 23.976 fps, the sound clock is then pulled back to 47952 Hz, so it will run in sync with that 23.976 fps picture, and then it is sample rate converted to 48000 Hz. This is commonly done without any correction to the slight change in pitch that is caused during this process. 

Going from 24 to 25 (or vice versa), the pitch change is more significant. A pitch correction always causes some sound quality loss. Some sound post folks will therefore not correct the pitch and put up with the changed pitch. Or they only correct the dialogue, or only the music. More commonly, the process individual stems with different methods, then mix those stems back together.


J

Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT

Bouke, the last thing anyone wants to do is pick a fight with you.

But in the 20 plus features I've cut, and the ten I've post-supervised, for the sound deliverables turned over here in L.A., speed is always an attendant issue.

In the words of Chief Joseph, I will fight no more forever.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:59 AM, bouke <bouke@editb.nl> wrote:

Since I'm the one who added RANT to this thread, and I'm also the one who is working to make audio post easier on deliverables:
You're talking nonsense.
For sound, there is no difference for any framerate.
(Unless these is a speed change, that will never happen unless it's an archive project for an archaic format.)

Feel  free to pick a fight.


Bouke

Edit 'B / VideoToolShed.com
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS  Nijmegen
+31 6 21817248

On 07 Sep 2020, at 19:23, David Dodson <davaldod@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know about statistically true, but anecdotally from personal experience, with the many features I've done, including all of the foreign language movies, including all of the Eastern European/Russian-language films, most all of which were mixed here in L.A., the sound post people always deliver two distinct sets of audio deliverables — 24fps and 23.976 fps (and of course in 5.1, in LtRt, etc., etc., plus M&E's, etc.).

All of these movies were shot at 24fps, including the Russian-language films, as that's how they're exhibited in Russian cinemas, in spite of their 25fps PAL TV standards.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

I have no idea if this is statistically true, but my BD collection has tons of titles, both at 24.000 and at 23.976. Typically, if a movie is shot and posted at 23.976, the video master used for the BD release will be 23.976. If the movie is shot and posted at 24.000, the video master will be 24.000, and the BD release will be 24.000. The latter has been the case for 90% of the stuff I worked on for the past decade.

Bottom line: they are two different playback rates, and therefore require different audio deliverables to match.

On 4 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Marcel B. <bncrcaxlr@gmail.com> wrote:

Blu-rays are predominantly mastered at 23.98




Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT

Since I'm the one who added RANT to this thread, and I'm also the one who is working to make audio post easier on deliverables:
You're talking nonsense.
For sound, there is no difference for any framerate.
(Unless these is a speed change, that will never happen unless it's an archive project for an archaic format.)

Feel  free to pick a fight.


Bouke

Edit 'B / VideoToolShed.com
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS  Nijmegen
+31 6 21817248

On 07 Sep 2020, at 19:23, David Dodson <davaldod@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know about statistically true, but anecdotally from personal experience, with the many features I've done, including all of the foreign language movies, including all of the Eastern European/Russian-language films, most all of which were mixed here in L.A., the sound post people always deliver two distinct sets of audio deliverables — 24fps and 23.976 fps (and of course in 5.1, in LtRt, etc., etc., plus M&E's, etc.).

All of these movies were shot at 24fps, including the Russian-language films, as that's how they're exhibited in Russian cinemas, in spite of their 25fps PAL TV standards.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

I have no idea if this is statistically true, but my BD collection has tons of titles, both at 24.000 and at 23.976. Typically, if a movie is shot and posted at 23.976, the video master used for the BD release will be 23.976. If the movie is shot and posted at 24.000, the video master will be 24.000, and the BD release will be 24.000. The latter has been the case for 90% of the stuff I worked on for the past decade.

Bottom line: they are two different playback rates, and therefore require different audio deliverables to match.

On 4 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Marcel B. <bncrcaxlr@gmail.com> wrote:

Blu-rays are predominantly mastered at 23.98



Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT

Well, of course that's absolutely true. For me, I've never concerned myself with whether or not a BD I had was 24 or 23.976. Modern players and displays handle the variations with ease and aplomb!

As well, I only ever escort a show up through DPX files for use in making the DCP. Whatever masters they derived for home video and other markets haven't been an overriding concern of late, not with playback and display technology being what it is today. Needless to say, I'm sure there is still specific work being done to accommodate 24fps originators  when prepping for broadcast in PAL-land.



On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:51 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

But the issue at hand was whether or not BD's were mastered at 23.976 or 24.000. I have seen both, and to the best of my knowledge there is no reason to prefer one over the other. Most of the films I worked on had European BD releases at 24.000 while the US BD was 23.976. Most likely that is because they can use the same 23.976 master file to encode for BD and DVD.

On 7 Sep 2020, at 19:23, David Dodson <davaldod@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know about statistically true, but anecdotally from personal experience, with the many features I've done, including all of the foreign language movies, including all of the Eastern European/Russian-language films, most all of which were mixed here in L.A., the sound post people always deliver two distinct sets of audio deliverables — 24fps and 23.976 fps (and of course in 5.1, in LtRt, etc., etc., plus M&E's, etc.).

All of these movies were shot at 24fps, including the Russian-language films, as that's how they're exhibited in Russian cinemas, in spite of their 25fps PAL TV standards.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

I have no idea if this is statistically true, but my BD collection has tons of titles, both at 24.000 and at 23.976. Typically, if a movie is shot and posted at 23.976, the video master used for the BD release will be 23.976. If the movie is shot and posted at 24.000, the video master will be 24.000, and the BD release will be 24.000. The latter has been the case for 90% of the stuff I worked on for the past decade.

Bottom line: they are two different playback rates, and therefore require different audio deliverables to match.

On 4 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Marcel B. <bncrcaxlr@gmail.com> wrote:

Blu-rays are predominantly mastered at 23.98




Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT

But the issue at hand was whether or not BD's were mastered at 23.976 or 24.000. I have seen both, and to the best of my knowledge there is no reason to prefer one over the other. Most of the films I worked on had European BD releases at 24.000 while the US BD was 23.976. Most likely that is because they can use the same 23.976 master file to encode for BD and DVD.

On 7 Sep 2020, at 19:23, David Dodson <davaldod@gmail.com> wrote:

I don't know about statistically true, but anecdotally from personal experience, with the many features I've done, including all of the foreign language movies, including all of the Eastern European/Russian-language films, most all of which were mixed here in L.A., the sound post people always deliver two distinct sets of audio deliverables — 24fps and 23.976 fps (and of course in 5.1, in LtRt, etc., etc., plus M&E's, etc.).

All of these movies were shot at 24fps, including the Russian-language films, as that's how they're exhibited in Russian cinemas, in spite of their 25fps PAL TV standards.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

I have no idea if this is statistically true, but my BD collection has tons of titles, both at 24.000 and at 23.976. Typically, if a movie is shot and posted at 23.976, the video master used for the BD release will be 23.976. If the movie is shot and posted at 24.000, the video master will be 24.000, and the BD release will be 24.000. The latter has been the case for 90% of the stuff I worked on for the past decade.

Bottom line: they are two different playback rates, and therefore require different audio deliverables to match.

On 4 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Marcel B. <bncrcaxlr@gmail.com> wrote:

Blu-rays are predominantly mastered at 23.98



Re: [Avid-L2] 29.97 and HD / RANT

I don't know about statistically true, but anecdotally from personal experience, with the many features I've done, including all of the foreign language movies, including all of the Eastern European/Russian-language films, most all of which were mixed here in L.A., the sound post people always deliver two distinct sets of audio deliverables — 24fps and 23.976 fps (and of course in 5.1, in LtRt, etc., etc., plus M&E's, etc.).

All of these movies were shot at 24fps, including the Russian-language films, as that's how they're exhibited in Russian cinemas, in spite of their 25fps PAL TV standards.

DD


On Sep 7, 2020, at 10:17 AM, Job ter Burg (L2) <Job_L2@terburg.com> wrote:

I have no idea if this is statistically true, but my BD collection has tons of titles, both at 24.000 and at 23.976. Typically, if a movie is shot and posted at 23.976, the video master used for the BD release will be 23.976. If the movie is shot and posted at 24.000, the video master will be 24.000, and the BD release will be 24.000. The latter has been the case for 90% of the stuff I worked on for the past decade.

Bottom line: they are two different playback rates, and therefore require different audio deliverables to match.

On 4 Aug 2020, at 20:57, Marcel B. <bncrcaxlr@gmail.com> wrote:

Blu-rays are predominantly mastered at 23.98