This IS the Avid L2: 10/3/21

Saturday, October 9, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Let me know if you got help…. Or if still in trouble with the data issue?

Xoxo

marianna

Marianna Montague
Sr. Director, Customer Success Management
Customer Experience & Customer Success
Avid - Remote
marianna.montague@avid.com
t +1 (978) 640-5215 | m +1 (813) 493-6800

Friday, October 8, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Thanks, yeah, saw that. But if it's not the controller at fault (although I believe it is) then I'm no further forward. Biggest problem is that it'll take 2 or 3 weeks to get here and it's another $100 delivery so a fair bit to shell out in the hope that it'll work.

Sent by magic over t'interweb

On 8 Oct 2021, at 18:34, bogdan_grigorescu via groups.io <bogdan_grigorescu=yahoo.com@groups.io> wrote:

Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay

$249.99
Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay
Avid VideoRAID SR. W01-L On Top of the RAID SR . Money back. Weight: 1.785 Kg. Height: 08 cm.

B.

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 10:08:58 a.m. PDT, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:

Hi all,

I urgently need to borrow or purchase a working Avid VideoRaid SR
chassis. The controller in mine appears to have died and there's some
media on the drives that isn't backed up elsewhere.

If you can help, then please either get back to me here or contact me
direct at tony@hdheaven.co.uk or on 07739 047 417

Many thanks in advance,
Tony

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Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay

$249.99

Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay

Avid VideoRAID SR. W01-L On Top of the RAID SR . Money back. Weight: 1.785 Kg. Height: 08 cm.

On Friday, October 8, 2021, 10:08:58 a.m. PDT, Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk> wrote:

Hi all,

I urgently need to borrow or purchase a working Avid VideoRaid SR

chassis. The controller in mine appears to have died and there's some

media on the drives that isn't backed up elsewhere.

If you can help, then please either get back to me here or contact me

direct at tony@hdheaven.co.uk or on 07739 047 417

Many thanks in advance,

Tony

This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.

https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Hi all,

I urgently need to borrow or purchase a working Avid VideoRaid SR
chassis. The controller in mine appears to have died and there's some
media on the drives that isn't backed up elsewhere.

If you can help, then please either get back to me here or contact me
direct at tony@hdheaven.co.uk or on 07739 047 417

Many thanks in advance,
Tony

--
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

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Thursday, October 7, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

[Edited Message Follows]

Here we go. From an old Tektronix hand out. NTSC starts field one on a full line so it is even lower field first:

Pal starts on a half line field one so its odd upper field first:

Since DV lops off 3 lines top and bottom is is odd upper field first. Thanks for inspiring me to review. I still don't understand why the starting on a full line is called "even" and starting on a half line is called "odd" I'm assuming the "lower" means the trace line is lower on the crt/screen for the full line and then the half line start is "upper" because it is over the the field one full traced line at that point. All I need is sync generator with a V1 pulse and SCH meter that will understand it to get the whole world in sync. ;-)

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Here we go. From an old Tektronix hand out. NTSC starts field one on a full line so it is even lower field first:

Pal starts on a half line field one so its odd upper field first:

Since DV lops off 3 lines top and bottom is is odd upper field first. Thanks for inspiring me to review.

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Please don't say 'most SD is upper field first'. That is 100% not true in the US, where it has been lower field first for generations.

We live in a society!

On Thu, Oct 7, 2021 at 6:46 PM John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

Now that you say it that way it makes sense. Given DV is 480 not 486 in the NTSC world if 486 is upper odd line first then lopping off 3 lines from the top and bottom would mean an uneven number of lines were dropped hence DV lower even field first. I never bothered to think it about it that way.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Now that you say it that way it makes sense. Given DV is 480 not 486 in the NTSC world if 486 is upper odd line first then lopping off 3 lines from the top and bottom would mean an uneven number of lines were dropped hence DV lower even field first. I never bothered to think it about it that way.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

If it's possible to enjoy this stuff, I guess I enjoy it too. IIRC, most SD is upper field first, the exception being DV. I think that has something to do with the DV standard saying,"no one will notice if we drop a few lines." JB

On Oct 7, 2021, at 4:28 PM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

I"m enjoying this thread especially because the term LUT or HDR or PQ is not involved.

Done some more thinking about the multigrouping aspect and how that seems to be involved. There is a program feed and isos. You mentioned that there was a one frame offset between program and isos. If you determine that the switched output is consistent on odd or even frames then it would make sense to line the cut points to even frames of the multigroup then shift the isos to match visually. Given you have no cut points to deal with in the isos that seems like the way to go. If the switcher feed isn't consistent with cut points relative to even or odd frames you would have to use isos to clean up those cut points.

On the record timeline side, I think this has been mentioned, can you set TC1 of the record timeline to 25Fps. I would think then that would only allow you to edit on even frames but I haven't tried this.

How was the time code in production handled? Were all the cameras synced to the same master clock/sync reference as the time code generator?

If this keeps going I'm going to recall the Frame Lock Assembly for CMX and later grudgingly ISC that aligned the time code sync word by inverting the 3/4 inch control track signal to bump the non frame servoed decks sources on field to get the time code proper.

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

I"m enjoying this thread especially because the term LUT or HDR or PQ is not involved.

Done some more thinking about the multigrouping aspect and how that seems to be involved. There is a program feed and isos. You mentioned that there was a one frame offset between program and isos. If you determine that the switched output is consistent on odd or even frames then it would make sense to line the cut points to even frames of the multigroup then shift the isos to match visually. Given you have no cut points to deal with in the isos that seems like the way to go. If the switcher feed isn't consistent with cut points relative to even or odd frames you would have to use isos to clean up those cut points.

On the record timeline side, I think this has been mentioned, can you set TC1 of the record timeline to 25Fps. I would think then that would only allow you to edit on even frames but I haven't tried this.

How was the time code in production handled? Were all the cameras synced to the same master clock/sync reference as the time code generator?

If this keeps going I'm going to recall the Frame Lock Assembly for CMX and later grudgingly ISC that aligned the time code sync word by inverting the 3/4 inch control track signal to bump the non frame servoed decks sources on field to get the time code proper.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

[Edited Message Follows]

I'm wondering if some terminology has changed a bit. I had always thought of field dominance as which field an edit occurs on. Field one or field 2 can be adjusted on switchers and on tape machines back in the linear and tape delivery days. I have always set systems to edit on field one and I thought that is considered field dominance. Then there is field order Upper or Lower and I just realized that has to do with if the interlace starts with an half or full line. For some reason I had never known exactly what upper vs. lower but knew SD was lower and HD was upper. I had thought it was whether the file had Field one first or field 2 stored in the order of data. Here's something a quick google found but I still think this is an incorrect usage of Field Dominance as they are using it to discribe Field Order. From a search"

"Dominance simply refers to the which field comes first. Upper field means the odd line comes first. Even field means the even line comes first. You cannot reverse this order or your video will fall apart.Dec 19, 2008"

Meanwhile back to my basic quandary. If something is shot 50P that is 50 whole frames per second. Wouldn't the best conversion to 1080i 25 be to take each whole frame and put it into a field of the interlaced 25? Each whole frame of the 50P is from a unique moment in time so there will be temporal displacement. This discussion seems predicated on an assumption that for example the 00 and 01 frames can be blended because they come from the same moment in time but as far as I know they don't. If the 00 and 01 are coming from the same moment in time that would be 25 psf wouldn't it. So if 50P is really 50 unique frames separated by 1/50 of a second it seems to me any combination of frames would create frame blending.

As I write this I think I'm realizing that what the core issue is one of what I traditionally think of as Field Dominance and not that if the edit doesn't happen on Field one consistently that's when you get spiit frames between two different shots. It sounds like you need something like the color frame setting of linear bays and IIRC Avid had a toggle for color frame as well. Gee I guess at least the concept of SCH still has some relevance even if it's technical necessity no longer exists. So it would be nice if Avid could invoke something like a for to only edit on even frames when the Rec Timeline is TC1=50P.

Now back to my thought that if the conversion from 50P to 25i was done taking each whole frame and putting it into a field then it wouldn't matter what field the edit happened on as each resulting interlace field would come from a whole frame. So why can't the conversion work this way? It seems as Mark pointed out 2nd field edits would mess up a subsequent progressive conversion. Once again there is so much emphasis on a progressive streaming source both cadence and image quality issues are disregarded.

Now that I think I've wrapped my head around this a bit I don't understand why the 1 frame offset in your multigroup would effect this at all. It seems to me the split frames are a result of where the edit on the record timeline is and has nothing to do with the source material side of things. Am I missing something there. Now if you are battling the field dominance of what the switcher put out I have seen that mess things up. Does you program feed file have switcher cuts that are randomly on odd and even frames in 50P time code? Switcher in the past, and must still do, had settings to cut on Field One or Field 2 or unspecified so when you hit the button the next field or frame in the case of 50P will change shots. This goes back to the annoying trims of a frame to avoid a flash field.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

I'm wondering if some terminology has changed a bit. I had always thought of field dominance as which field an edit occurs on. Field one or field 2 can be adjusted on switchers and on tape machines back in the linear and tape delivery days. I have always set systems to edit on field one and I thought that is considered field dominance. Then there is field order Upper or Lower and I just realized that has to do with if the interlace starts with an half or full line. For some reason I had never known exactly what upper vs. lower but knew SD was lower and HD was upper. I had thought it was whether the file had Field one first or field 2 stored in the order of data. Here's something a quick google found but I still think this is an incorrect usage of Field Dominance as they are using it to discribe Field Order. From a search"

"Dominance simply refers to the which field comes first. Upper field means the odd line comes first. Even field means the even line comes first. You cannot reverse this order or your video will fall apart.Dec 19, 2008"

Meanwhile back to my basic quandary. If something is shot 50P that is 50 whole frames per second. Wouldn't the best conversion to 1080i 25 be to take each whole frame and put it into a field of the interlaced 25? Each whole frame of the 50P is from a unique moment in time so there will be temporal displacement. This discussion seems predicated on an assumption that for example the 00 and 01 frames can be blended because they come from the same moment in time but as far as I know they don't. If the 00 and 01 are coming from the same moment in time that would be 25 psf wouldn't it. So if 50P is really 50 unique frames separated by 1/50 of a second it seems to me any combination of frames would create frame blending.

As I write this I think I'm realizing that what the core issue is one of what I traditionally think of as Field Dominance and not that if the edit doesn't happen on Field one consistently that's when you get spiit frames between two different shots. It sounds like you need something like the color frame setting of linear bays and IIRC Avid had a toggle for color frame as well. Gee I guess at least the concept of SCH still has some relevance even if it's technical necessity no longer exists. So it would be nice if Avid could invoke something like a for to only edit on even frames when the Rec Timeline is TC1=50P.

Now back to my thought that if the conversion from 50P to 25i was done taking each whole frame and putting it into a field then it wouldn't matter what field the edit happened on as each resulting interlace field would come from a whole frame. So why can't the conversion work this way? It seems as Mark pointed out 2nd field edits would mess up a subsequent progressive conversion. Once again there is so much for a progressive streaming source cadence and image quality issues are disregarded.

Now that I think I've wrapped my head around this a bit I don't understand why the 1 frame offset in your multigroup would effect this at all. It seems to me the split frames are a result of where the edit on the record timeline is and has nothing to do with the source material side of things. Am I missing something there. Now if you are battling the field dominance of what the switcher put out I have seen that mess things up. Does you program feed file have switcher cuts that are randomly on odd and even frames in 50P time code? Switcher in the past, and must still do, had settings to cut on Field One or Field 2 or unspecified so when you hit the button the next field or frame in the case of 50P will change shots. This goes back to the annoying trims of a frame to avoid a flash field.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

FIFA world cup / UEFA Euros / Olympics is 50/59.94P acquisition but lots of 25/29.97i distribution + broadcasts.

You are *correct* that mixed 'upper' + 'lower' frame switching or editing in P domain results in some intra frame edits when converted (frame per field) from P to I.

Initially, IIRC, there was no way of the live converter identifying the correct 'upper' frame - so even if you did have vision mixer set to switch consistently on 'upper' frames you had a 50% chance of having intra frame interlaced cuts.

More recently, certainly the Sony switchers can do it - there's some flag in the signal that the convertors read. (Don't know if that also works when playing back from EVS/file server though? It would need to lock playback odd to sync reference odd frames? This is what you'd need if exporting 'upper' frame edited 50P that is interlaced as it airs. But TBH it's not likely to be being QCd if it's airing live...)

Exporting from Avid 50p to file 25i *is* consistent. There's two places you can change between 25/50 based editing. One forces the edits to 25fps (ie you can only edit every other 50p frame). The other switches between 25 and 50 FPS timecode (hence the different seperator for odd/even frames). You can still be editing on any frame but display 25fps timecode (I think that's default tbh).

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Wednesday, October 6, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Jo - not for nothing, but a 'nope' is a rather rude response to my educated reply. The pulldown example I gave is exactly how it's been done here for decades before I was even born. QC will only be kicking back intraframe edits if they (or their library) are considering using your interlaced delivery for a subsequent progressive output. Otherwise there is no reason why they shouldn't accept and air as it is.

I would think it is worth finding out. I have had thousands of successful deliveries on this very idea, and only the handful that came back were for this exact reason, which can be a fair one if the processes at the air end are automated and not 'smartly' controlled by technicians (i.e. you could very easily take 25i, remake it to 50p, then lop off half the odd or even frames and have a good (not great but good enough) 25p intermediate with no blended frames. Alas, the world we live, you can rarely tell what happens to your work once it leaves your capable hands and lands in the not-so-capable hands of amateurs and robots.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:45 PM Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

Mark -

Sorry to say, but: nope.

QC on the side of the TV recipient (broadcast, not: streaming) WILL throw back intra-frame edits.

This in mind: a proper setup on source p50 -> chaning Avid to "Edit Timebase 25" can fix this. However: if MultiClips are involved and as there is a 1f offset in-between the ISOs and the PGM in the 50 raster - is i good enough to keep the timeline-edits in the 50 raster at ":"? Knowingly: that 1f offset in-between the ISOs and the PGM wpuld not line up?

Is there a way to display a 50fps TC in Avid on the track read-outs or ist it just "." and ":" in a 25 counter instead of a 50 counter? What's gonna happen if we go 100/120 fps?

Avid, you read this?

Best

Jo

Jochen "Jo" Hermann
filter Media Postproduction
Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 04:31, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:

However, if you have an interlaced delivery, and it is going to an interlaced playback platform, then having those blended frames (edits with a frame of one shot and a frame of another shot) are OK. You may be thinking that you need to keep all those edits "clean" but that can be torturous to maintain. I would, as Knut said, edit in 50p and finish in 50p, and convert that 50p master to 25i at the end for that specific delivery. If that delivery is asking you for clean edits on your interlaced frames, it then becomes clear that they intend to subsequently re-encode your 25i air master for 25p web/streaming, and they can go to heck.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Mark -

Sorry to say, but: nope.

QC on the side of the TV recipient (broadcast, not: streaming) WILL throw back intra-frame edits.

This in mind: a proper setup on source p50 -> chaning Avid to "Edit Timebase 25" can fix this. However: if MultiClips are involved and as there is a 1f offset in-between the ISOs and the PGM in the 50 raster - is i good enough to keep the timeline-edits in the 50 raster at ":"? Knowingly: that 1f offset in-between the ISOs and the PGM wpuld not line up?

Is there a way to display a 50fps TC in Avid on the track read-outs or ist it just "." and ":" in a 25 counter instead of a 50 counter? What's gonna happen if we go 100/120 fps?

Avid, you read this?

Best

Jochen "Jo" Hermann

filter Media Postproduction

Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 04:31, Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com> wrote:

However, if you have an interlaced delivery, and it is going to an interlaced playback platform, then having those blended frames (edits with a frame of one shot and a frame of another shot) are OK. You may be thinking that you need to keep all those edits "clean" but that can be torturous to maintain. I would, as Knut said, edit in 50p and finish in 50p, and convert that 50p master to 25i at the end for that specific delivery. If that delivery is asking you for clean edits on your interlaced frames, it then becomes clear that they intend to subsequently re-encode your 25i air master for 25p web/streaming, and they can go to heck.

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

I think perhaps there's a consideration being made for something that doesn't necessarily need considering. I would say the 'half one shot, half the next shot' on an interlaced frame is just fine for being played back in an interlaced world. That is in fact exactly how 23.976p becomes 29.97i in the US.

frames A / B / C / D in 23.976p

become

AA / BB / BC / CD / DD in 29.97i

And everyone is happy.

EXCEPT

the people who want to go and use that interlaced file on progressive streaming services or internet platforms. Then they often blend the frames together and drop one, and you get a stutter at best and weird half and half frames at worst.

However, if you have an interlaced delivery, and it is going to an interlaced playback platform, then having those blended frames (edits with a frame of one shot and a frame of another shot) are OK. You may be thinking that you need to keep all those edits "clean" but that can be torturous to maintain. I would, as Knut said, edit in 50p and finish in 50p, and convert that 50p master to 25i at the end for that specific delivery. If that delivery is asking you for clean edits on your interlaced frames, it then becomes clear that they intend to subsequently re-encode your 25i air master for 25p web/streaming, and they can go to heck.

On Wed, Oct 6, 2021 at 10:22 PM Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

John -

Well, what we did already is a successful transfer from p50 to i25 - edited in Avid, tranfered to DaVinci Resolve (DVR) and therefrom put out at i25.

By our experience, pending on the handling of frame rate conversion in DVR, if you opt for "frame blending" (instead of "nearest / Optical flow) in fact the p50 timeline in an i25 timeline will end upt not psf but frame-blended frame #00 & frame #01 where frame #00 is upper and #01 is lower field (we aren not talking NTSC-DV where fields are reordered from upper to lower field first).

Turning back into Avid: my expectation is: preparing a sequence for the editor, all edits have to be at ":" (not at "." - by Avid lacking displaying a 50 fps TC). -> If there is an edit on "." in a 50 Edit Timebase" we are all fine, however, if you switch that sequnce to "Edit Timebase 25) you are not able to catch the edit done in the 50 fps timeline - it will be one frame ahead or late to the edit you did in the 50 fps timeline. This will phonk your edit for further process.

?

Jochen "Jo" Hermann
filter Media Postproduction
Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:46, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

Years back I asked how 720P 59.94 was converted into 1080i 59.94. I thought each frame would become a field but that was never confirmed and it was suggested that each 720 frame did not become a field but just every other frame was converted to an interlaced psf. I'm not really sure what happens when 720P is converted to 1080i. If I ask the same question in your 50P/25i world what is the answer there. Does each frame of the 50P become a field? 50P means 50 discrete frames per second, correct? Or is it two Frames from the same moment in time?. I think it's the former not the later but please confirm or correct. Bottom line is if each frame is a unique moment in time no matter which 50P frame you chose there will always be a blended frame. The big draw for 720P for ABC was that it had crisper motion like interlace does.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

John -

Well, what we did already is a successful transfer from p50 to i25 - edited in Avid, tranfered to DaVinci Resolve (DVR) and therefrom put out at i25.

By our experience, pending on the handling of frame rate conversion in DVR, if you opt for "frame blending" (instead of "nearest / Optical flow) in fact the p50 timeline in an i25 timeline will end upt not psf but frame-blended frame #00 & frame #01 where frame #00 is upper and #01 is lower field (we aren not talking NTSC-DV where fields are reordered from upper to lower field first).

Turning back into Avid: my expectation is: preparing a sequence for the editor, all edits have to be at ":" (not at "." - by Avid lacking displaying a 50 fps TC). -> If there is an edit on "." in a 50 Edit Timebase" we are all fine, however, if you switch that sequnce to "Edit Timebase 25) you are not able to catch the edit done in the 50 fps timeline - it will be one frame ahead or late to the edit you did in the 50 fps timeline. This will phonk your edit for further process.

Jochen "Jo" Hermann

filter Media Postproduction

Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:46, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

Years back I asked how 720P 59.94 was converted into 1080i 59.94. I thought each frame would become a field but that was never confirmed and it was suggested that each 720 frame did not become a field but just every other frame was converted to an interlaced psf. I'm not really sure what happens when 720P is converted to 1080i. If I ask the same question in your 50P/25i world what is the answer there. Does each frame of the 50P become a field? 50P means 50 discrete frames per second, correct? Or is it two Frames from the same moment in time?. I think it's the former not the later but please confirm or correct. Bottom line is if each frame is a unique moment in time no matter which 50P frame you chose there will always be a blended frame. The big draw for 720P for ABC was that it had crisper motion like interlace does.

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Years back I asked how 720P 59.94 was converted into 1080i 59.94. I thought each frame would become a field but that was never confirmed and it was suggested that each 720 frame did not become a field but just every other frame was converted to an interlaced psf. I'm not really sure what happens when 720P is converted to 1080i. If I ask the same question in your 50P/25i world what is the answer there. Does each frame of the 50P become a field? 50P means 50 discrete frames per second, correct? Or is it two Frames from the same moment in time?. I think it's the former not the later but please confirm or correct. Bottom line is if each frame is a unique moment in time no matter which 50P frame you chose there will always be a blended frame. The big draw for 720P for ABC was that it had crisper motion like interlace does.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Hm.

I'm in a p50 timeline, recreating the edits (from whatever source, PGM live or Audio) - we might and surely will end up with edits which are at "." instead of ":". If we would transfer this to Color and export from there into i25 wen will end up at these particular point ("." vs":") with intra-frame.

Avid itself can not grab, once switched from 50 to 25 Editing Timebase, the real edit point, because it's intra-frame?

So, the progressive is fine, however: going p50 to p25 with the goal in mind: i25 - > my thoughts are the edits have to be on ":" and shall not be on "."

I appreciate your input - but it's complicated!

Jochen "Jo" Hermann

filter Media Postproduction

Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:37, Knut A. Helgeland via groups.io <kahelia=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

Wrong. Your source is progressive and your edit is progressive all the way, until you master it into an interlaced format. The interlacing will use whatever full frames you give it, and divide them into half frames according to export spec.

K

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:33, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

Correct:

Source is progressive, p50
Editing in p50 will result in edits in odd frame numbers. If we are pruning p50 into i25 we are, technically, merging two frame into two fields. I.e.: Frame :00 and frame :01 into interlaces 1. field :00 and second field : 01.

So, if there is an edit not on :00 or :02 or … any even number: we will end up with intraframe, mid-field edits.

Wrong?

Jochen "Jo" Hermann
filter Media Postproduction
Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:25, Knut A. Helgeland via groups.io <kahelia=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

No, don't worry about fields, your source is progressive - the field encoding happens on final export to the i25 format.

K

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:15, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

OBvan-recordings (2 Shows) @ UHDp50, one of the final outputs has to be 1080i25 (frameblending p50->i25 will do the trick).
However, I guess: we have to make sure all edits are done on the first "field", the even frame in the 50 raster (:00, :02, : 04, …)

Right?

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Wrong. Your source is progressive and your edit is progressive all the way, until you master it into an interlaced format. The interlacing will use whatever full frames you give it, and divide them into half frames according to export spec.

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:33, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

Correct:

Source is progressive, p50
Editing in p50 will result in edits in odd frame numbers. If we are pruning p50 into i25 we are, technically, merging two frame into two fields. I.e.: Frame :00 and frame :01 into interlaces 1. field :00 and second field : 01.

So, if there is an edit not on :00 or :02 or … any even number: we will end up with intraframe, mid-field edits.

Wrong?

Jochen "Jo" Hermann
filter Media Postproduction
Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:25, Knut A. Helgeland via groups.io <kahelia=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

No, don't worry about fields, your source is progressive - the field encoding happens on final export to the i25 format.

K

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:15, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

OBvan-recordings (2 Shows) @ UHDp50, one of the final outputs has to be 1080i25 (frameblending p50->i25 will do the trick).
However, I guess: we have to make sure all edits are done on the first "field", the even frame in the 50 raster (:00, :02, : 04, …)

Right?

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Correct:

Source is progressive, p50

Editing in p50 will result in edits in odd frame numbers. If we are pruning p50 into i25 we are, technically, merging two frame into two fields. I.e.: Frame :00 and frame :01 into interlaces 1. field :00 and second field : 01.

So, if there is an edit not on :00 or :02 or … any even number: we will end up with intraframe, mid-field edits.

Wrong?

Jochen "Jo" Hermann

filter Media Postproduction

Salzburg, Austria

On 7. Oct 2021, at 02:25, Knut A. Helgeland via groups.io <kahelia=me.com@groups.io> wrote:

No, don't worry about fields, your source is progressive - the field encoding happens on final export to the i25 format.

K

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:15, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

OBvan-recordings (2 Shows) @ UHDp50, one of the final outputs has to be 1080i25 (frameblending p50->i25 will do the trick).
However, I guess: we have to make sure all edits are done on the first "field", the even frame in the 50 raster (:00, :02, : 04, …)

Right?

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

No, don't worry about fields, your source is progressive - the field encoding happens on final export to the i25 format.

On 7 Oct 2021, at 02:15, Jo's Mailinglists <lists@filter-media.net> wrote:

OBvan-recordings (2 Shows) @ UHDp50, one of the final outputs has to be 1080i25 (frameblending p50->i25 will do the trick).
However, I guess: we have to make sure all edits are done on the first "field", the even frame in the 50 raster (:00, :02, : 04, …)

Right?

[Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Hi Avid-L2!

I'm looking into a complex frame rate thing and I am hoping for some input in that brain-cell circulation – please let me elaborate:

TV-Show, European, so we are looking at 25fps and multiples.

OBvan-recordings (2 Shows) @ UHDp50, one of the final outputs has to be 1080i25 (frameblending p50->i25 will do the trick).

However, I guess: we have to make sure all edits are done on the first "field", the even frame in the 50 raster (:00, :02, : 04, …)

Right?

Editing set up UHD (XAVC-300@500MBits, 9 Cams+PGM (clean) transferred via Avid>Transcode -> DNxHR LB 1080p50.

Create MultiClips, adjust drift ISO/PGM = PGM Video/Audio by 1f (in 50 raster) late to ISOs (Switcher on OBVan).

Re-edit Audio-AAF (incoming @ 25 and rounding errors) @ 50fps.

Hand-over that preliminary edit to the editor and tell "Edit timebase has to be 25fps in the p50 project!".

—

Afaik Avid has nor "real" 50 raster TC in the TC display, instead the software goes "." or ":", where the latter is equal to a 25fps fullframe (=upper field if you go down 1080i25. One do not want an edit on ".", the odd framenumber in 50 raster or, for that matter, the lower field in 1080i25 (which is "Upper Field first").

So: if we adjust the MultiClip for the drift on OBVan-Switcher's PGM to ISOs in 50-raster we adjust 1f. Which would be the second half of an interlaced frame. Everything is in sync now: we can switch PGM vs ISOs on their respective occurrence and are indent.

However, editing this kind of a MultiClip into a timeline and then switch each ISO to the Ref-PGM of the OBVan gives us edits (at least: sometimes) which are in the timeline at "." instead of ":" - so switching the project to 25 Editing Timebase will overstep the initial edit by one frame early or one frame late (in respective to the 50 Editing Timebase).

You still follow?

Since, as far as I know, there is no way to select a range of clips an "slip the clips whilst keeping the edits in place" or "move the edits without moving the clip's content with it…

We are doomed!?

-> all edits in the timeline ought to be at a ":"TC place

-> all source material has to be edited at their respective ":" TC

Where is the knot in my brain on this one?

Thanks in advance!

Jochen "Jo" Hermann

filter Media Postproduction

Salzburg, Austria

Tuesday, October 5, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] What Should be Legal Range and What should be Full Range in an HDR workflow?

Here's another factor I have to deal with. I'm running an Aja Hi 5 to go SDI te HDMI and trigger the C9 LG OLED into HDR mode. Feeding YCbCr or YUV there is no level control for input or output. If I feed it 4:4:4 then I can adjust both input and output level. I confirmed from the shop that did my LG and PVM calibration that it was done with the test generator in legal level mode. The assumption by the Aja Hi 5 is that anything YUV is legal level but even when I send it YUV out of Resolve I can switch between Data(Full Range) or Video(Legal Range) and it effects the monitor output level. So for me running in video levels for monitoring should work for dual output. It's the video essence of the final file that I want to confirm should be Full Range or can it be Legal Range and properly flagged?

Another what I believe to be new wrinkle is that it seems with a recent software update on my LG OLED C9 the calibrated settings of Cinema (User) which are available in HDR mode in the preset choices are no longer available when I stream Dolby Vision content. I'm pretty sure it use to offer the Cinema (User) choice when streaming but now it's not there. I see the usual presets of standard, game, Cinema (Home), Cinema etc... but not the calibrated one. I checked with the facility that did the calibration and they said this means now they have to do three calibrations on LGs. One for SDR, one for HDR and now one for Dolby Vision. After googling around I did find information that said YUV was supposed to be Legal Range but clearly it can be made at either level.

So if I run in legal range with the dual output of HDR and SDR I would think the Dolby Vision Trim pass would still be valid. I think this is why the target display for 100 nits says it's full range so like everything else in Resolve is process Full range after the input and before the output this makes the Target Display stay matched to the HDR side of the dual output. As you pointed out it's all about scaling in the end. So if I did all this monitoring legal then when I go to the delivery page and tell it to be Data(Full Range) I would think that would be right.

I do have media info and I see in your example the Color Primaries are BT.2020 and the Transfer Characteristics are PQ. Are Transfer Characteristics the same as the Electro-Optical Transfer Function? I know HDR is done in PQ but where in this media info screen does it specify if this file is Legal or Full Range? I'm not versed in what the Matrix coefficients that are BT.2020 non-consistant means. Most deliveries for Dolby Vision I've heard about are constrained to P3-DCI space some are P3 in s Rec 2020 container. Are the previously mention media info specs what the "container" is flagged as.

I find it confusing how to follow everything through the pipeline like I grew up in linear edit bays because the final encoders etc... seem to have a protocol/mind of their own that often doesn't really analyze the actual signal level in the video essence but looks at metadata flags that clearly can often be incorrect for the actual video essence. Why can't someone make a 3/4inch to 1inch HDR bay for me??? ;-)

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Re: [Avid-L2] What Should be Legal Range and What should be Full Range in an HDR workflow?

RE: Dual Monitoring - The only solution I can think of for your PVM is to put a LUT box in front of it for the purpose of scaling from Full > Legal. It should give you an accurate display that you can run next to the big boy since Data Level scaling should not be destructive and the blacks should match.

RE: My mismatch - Indeed, highlight/shadows blown with a little too much saturation in the mids. I also purposely worked the shadows and the crushing of the shadows took what was already dark and turned it into an inkblot. Grrr...

RE: File Metadata - On the Mac, Screen is pretty good but I use MediaInfo to see how my renders are getting tagged since it's so hard to trust anything anymore. Here's a screenshot:

You can find it here: https://mediaarea.net/en/MediaInfo

- pi

- -
Patrick inhofer

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 4:51 PM John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

[Edited Message Follows]
In rereading your post I'm curious when you had the mismatch on your streamer delivery was it blown out or washed out. In my case it was washed out because clipster or resolve interpreted the DPX with an assumption of Full Range when it was not. I'd bet that in your case the encoders assumed that your ProRes444XQ was legal range and scaled it improperly to Full Range when it already was. That's been what I've been thinking about what ProRes files are supposed to be over the years. I haven't found a "Swiss Army Knife" program that will parse out a files metadata to tell me these sorts of things about what metadata flags are set to. I have media info and that's good for some basic things. Do know of a good program that will display all the metadata for a file?

Be sides all the potential mismatches it's also hard to look at PQ video essence and see if its full range or legal. Recently I got a ProResHQ HDR file from a friend and the video essence seemed to be Full Range when I played it out through BM Express through my DNxIO to my Tek scope it was well below 0mV. That indicated to me it was Full Range.

On Tue, Oct 5, 2021 at 11:05 AM, Patrick Inhofer wrote:

John,

In Resolve, external monitor settings need to *always* match your Project Settings > Video Monitoring > Data Levels.

This may be set irrespective of how you've set up your Color Managed pipeline. It's always a simple non-destructive linear scale between Video <> Full so whatever you've set your color management to for the project, you can send it to your external display however you want as long as the setting in Resolve matches your external display. I've seen some Best Practices that insist you need to monitor at Full in PQ workflows - but I have serious doubts about that advice so long as Resolve and the display are handling the image in the same manner. But if you want a standard practice, that's it.

I myself got slammed by a Data Levels problem on a DoVi deliverable to a major streamer 10 days ago. I explicitly set FULL on the deliver page for a ProRes444XQ render, as specified in the documentation provided by the streamer.

When the show was released I was horrified to see that there was clearly a Data Levels mismatch problem. After working with Dolby we surmised that setting Resolve to 'Auto' generated a container that survived the post-delivery encoders when the streamer was packaging for delivery.

The thinking is this: The various encoders are expecting a deliverable that conforms to the published 'default' of the PreRes444XQ container - even if the container properly specifies whatever explicit setting you apply. So the fix for me was: Rerender using 'Auto' for Data Levels, and the program looks correct at the end of the pipeline. Problem solved (for me).

Now: Is this the 'proper' workflow? Who knows? But it's the workflow I had to follow to get a proper deliverable streaming into the home. YMMV.

RE: 100 nit monitoring - The 100 nit target should be monitored EXACTLY as the HDR master. You should NOT switch Resolve's Data Levels or the external display. Resolve's internal color management will handle all this for you. You just need to make sure the Gamut/Gamma settings match your 100 nit target on the external display.

I hope this all makes sense? I can't speak to how this lines up with Avid exports...

- -
Patrick inhofer

Photon Wrangler, Colorist, Coach

TaoOfColor.com / MixingLight.com

Subscribe to my free weekly Color Grading Newsletter!

On Sat, Sep 25, 2021 at 9:34 PM John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

I am running Avid/Resolve on a mid 2012 12 Core 3.46 GHz, 128 GB ram, Radeon RX-580 Saphire Pulse 8GB GPU. I have the Avid branded DNxIO which feeds an Aja Hi 5 SDI to HDMI converter to trigger the HDR mode on my LG OLED C9. I've had the LG OLED and my PVM-2541 professionally calibrated with the LG having separate calibrations for SDR and HDR. I have confirmed with the calibration technician that the calibrations were done feeding legal level to the LG OLED. They said that's how they always do it unless someone requests Full Range. I realize in the higher end monitors like the Sony X310 you can set that the SDI input for legal (or they might call it limited) or Full Range but the LG to my knowledge has no such toggle.

Here are some of the behaviors I'm seeing:

In Resolve V16 and probably V17 as far as I know I can adjust the Data Level in the master settings to video or full for legal or full range to feed out of the DNxIO. In order to do the trim SDR pass for Dolby Vision using the Target Display Output there is only one choice for 100 Nits and that is "100-nit, BT.709, BT.1886, Full". Using this setting the Target Display Output follows the master settings Video Monitor Data Levels setting. So setting Data Levels to Full yields a blown out SDR SDI signal with the level way below 0mV and way above 700mV. Switching to Video Data Levels and the Target Display output is correct on an SDR Scope and monitor.

The Aja Hi 5 has a configuration Control Panel that has input and output level adjustments which they call SMPTE for Legal and Full for Full Range. If feed a YCbCr SDI signal these controls are not functional. I assume this is because in Googling I found that YCbCr is always Legal Range. If I feed it 4:4:4 SDI then the input and output level controls function as expected.

In Resolve V16 and probably V17 when running in YCbCr mode, no check on 444 SDI in the master settings, I can still toggle the the Data Levels between Video and Full and I see corresponding jump in the SDI output of the DNxIO. This seems to contradict what I found Googling regarding YCbCr always being legal or limit range. Given the Aja Hi 5 has no level controls when feed YCbCr I assume I should choose Video level so that the Hi 5 YCbCr going in is legal.

The ultimate question is when outputting a file for Dolby Vision, targa or tiff sequence etc..., what should the video essence of the PQ material be Video or Full? I'm told HDR is Full Range so I would guess that but then when doing the Dolby Vision Trim pass if I monitor while in Full range I get a very blown out Target Display Output which effects the trim pass and if I switch to Video Range output the Target Display for 100 nit looks more normal to start with. I would think I should be in video mode to do the 100 nit Trim Pass using Target Display Mode but I am not certain of this.

So I am trying to find out what the video essence of the PQ ST 2084 level should be legal or full and if full then what is the 100 nit trim pass supposed to be done in Full or Legal Mode?

John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

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This IS the Avid L2

Saturday, October 9, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Friday, October 8, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay

Re: [Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Avid VideoRAID SR Controller Module 7030-20165-01 | eBay

[Avid-L2] Anyone in the UK with a working VideoRaid SR chassis?

Thursday, October 7, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Wednesday, October 6, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Re: [Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

[Avid-L2] Europe here calling: p50 -> p25 - i25

Tuesday, October 5, 2021

Re: [Avid-L2] What Should be Legal Range and What should be Full Range in an HDR workflow?

Re: [Avid-L2] What Should be Legal Range and What should be Full Range in an HDR workflow?

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