Saturday, August 8, 2015

Re: [Avid-L2] Alternate Edit button

 

That's what it is.  It is a feature migrated from NewsCutter.


With Best Wishes
Roger Shufflebottom
rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk
+44 7973 543660


On 7 Aug 2015, at 15:47, Dan McCabe danlist@bestmail.us [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Just noticed the "alternate edit" button in command palette for the
first time. Anyone use that and under what circumstances? 

From reading help, it seems a rather complicated way of showing versions
of something which I would tend to do with multiple tracks or separate
sequences...

Thx


__._,_.___

Posted by: Roger Shufflebottom <rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Friday, August 7, 2015

Re: [Avid-L2] RGB levels from Tiffen and other 3rd party AVX effects?

 

I know the log stuff never hits limits. I thought you were saying that the rec 709 mapping puts 18 at 400 in rec 709

Sent from my iPhone

On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:40 PM, bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Mr. Steve,
Take a look at:
ARRI Group: LOG C AND REC 709 VIDEO

 


When shooting in LogC the data never goes to 0 or up to 1024.  That's why it looks milky.  I would expect the Rec 709 video tap on the camera to go basically from 0 to 1024 when properly exposed but that's not the actual LogC values that end up coming to me.  When something is under or over exposed which I assume mean Scene 18% gray is below or above the 400 data point does that asymmetrically whack out the exposure of the image.

Traditionally with Rec 709 images if it's under exposed I increase the gain and vice versa for over exposed.  Now with LogC images I have to pull down the setup and raise the gain and generally bring up the the setup gain and bring up the gamma lower end.  Arri's standard LUT in Resolve seems to work well but other cameras don't seem to be so consistent with their LUT performance.  I've been told that the varying manufacturers Log color math isn't implemented as consistently as Arri's or Sony's which may explain why I can't find that dream one size fits all LUT for a given camera like Canon's C300.

My math skills are very rusty when it comes to exponential/ log math but it would seem to me in the case of Arri that the unpacking/color transform of Arri footage with their LUT would get messed up if the Scene 18% grey hasn't been exposed at 400 data value.  Is there an L2 mathematician that can whack me over the head with a ruler, preferably graduated in F stops or is it EI these days, and knock some Log sense into me? 


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <Steve@...> wrote :

Well, 18% gray is a standard on color charts. So I'd assume that they're saying that the LUT is developed so that a properly exposed 18% gray exposure (on a chip or color chart) comes out to 400 in 10bit. Properly exposed would mean white was 1024 and black was as close to 0 as you could get it. So basically they're defining part of the gamma curve for you - the part that's at 18%.

Steve



On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:20 AM, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Avid 8.3.1 and perhaps earlier version have an option to auto apply a color transform based on ama linking but as was pointed out earlier this week on the L2 it makes a lot of mistakes.  This combined with my recent LUT related trials and tribulations that made it seem like it's virtually impossible to get decent results from a once size fits all LUT for a given manufacturers Log file.  Arri seems good as are some of the Sony's but I couldn't seem to get a basic LUT for my Canon C300 footage and have adopted what others here have suggested and just color corrected out the LUT.  

I really don't see why the Log transforms can't just be untransformed out to 709 space but perhaps there is some aspect of the logarithmic math or the transform formula that I don't understand.  Arri site says that their LogC format anchors Scene 18% Grey to a data value of 400 in 10bit math.  As you adjust the exposure you get more or less stops above or below.  I don't know what determines Scene 18% grey.  Is that a constant value like a spectrometer probe on a monitor would measure and exact value of nits or is it something that takes the darkest to the lightest elements and from that establishes Scene 18% grey.  I'd really like to understand this better.

My experience seems to suggest that with all the varying log transforms from the different manufactures that each one behaves differently and that over and under exposures gets whacky pretty quick.  This is just my observation dealing with material I get in post.  I hope to get with a knowledgeable DIT /Cinematographer to get a better handle on how to deal properly with the material.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote :

What makes more sense is for the world to get onto the Aces band wagon and adopt transforms for output.

We do everything full range now and output appropriately, seems we could add transforms to and from outboard processing. 

What is distressing is that it's still down to manual labour choosing settings when every camera records all the needed info in the file header.

Id like to see auto input transforms in every system and a selection at export time - rec709, rgb or dci.

Mike

On 7 Aug 2015, at 9:20 am, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

"Color correcting means correcting things like these."
Yes but if I have a perfectly legal color corrected shot and I apply the tiffen day for night I would like for it to come back with the effect in 709 space not RGB so that I then have to add a color correction effect to bring it back into legal.  Now if the BCC legal check box is just clipping that's not great but usually I see it chopping the glows etc... that are whacky anyways but it doesn't take the base shot and alter the overall color space.

As you say the proper way would be to scale the effect output and I don't think that option is asking too much of an avx plugin.  I do see that when the Tiffen effects open in their own interface that there is a reason for them to display as RGB because more than likely they are being seen in a computer screen that is working in  RGB space.  Doesn't it make sense for those RGB levels to be scaled to 709 space if that's what I'm working on in my Avid timeline? 



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <Job_L2@...> wrote :

That's what happens if you manipulate color levels, which is what these filters do.
I think in the past, they were clipped/crushed to legal, which is not what you would normally want. Color correcting means correcting things like these.

On 6 aug. 2015, at 08:57, John Moore bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I notice that the effects come back into Avid at illegal RGB levels




__._,_.___

Posted by: Steve Hullfish <steve@veralith.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (11)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Mixdown madness

 

I have had issues mixing 10 bit and 8 bit DNX codecs.  If the bars are first at DNX 145 8bit then the mixdown is DNX 220X 10 bit I've had issues when exporting QT ref and then baking self contained .movs.  IIRC when I would ama the subsequent file back into Avid whatever codec appeared first becaming the "master codec" for the ama'd clip then differing bit media would play back funky.  In QT Pro the file would playback fine.  I think I was dealing with a mixture of DNX 220 and DNX 220X at the time.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <kenavid2@...> wrote :

I tried both from beginning of program and beginning of bars.  Bars are DNx145.   Beginning of program is actually 220x.  Renders are NOT set to same as source.  Set to 145 as is mixdown.  220x mixdown was fine.

__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] RGB levels from Tiffen and other 3rd party AVX effects?

 

Mr. Steve,
Take a look at:
ARRI Group: LOG C AND REC 709 VIDEO

 


When shooting in LogC the data never goes to 0 or up to 1024.  That's why it looks milky.  I would expect the Rec 709 video tap on the camera to go basically from 0 to 1024 when properly exposed but that's not the actual LogC values that end up coming to me.  When something is under or over exposed which I assume mean Scene 18% gray is below or above the 400 data point does that asymmetrically whack out the exposure of the image.

Traditionally with Rec 709 images if it's under exposed I increase the gain and vice versa for over exposed.  Now with LogC images I have to pull down the setup and raise the gain and generally bring up the the setup gain and bring up the gamma lower end.  Arri's standard LUT in Resolve seems to work well but other cameras don't seem to be so consistent with their LUT performance.  I've been told that the varying manufacturers Log color math isn't implemented as consistently as Arri's or Sony's which may explain why I can't find that dream one size fits all LUT for a given camera like Canon's C300.

My math skills are very rusty when it comes to exponential/ log math but it would seem to me in the case of Arri that the unpacking/color transform of Arri footage with their LUT would get messed up if the Scene 18% grey hasn't been exposed at 400 data value.  Is there an L2 mathematician that can whack me over the head with a ruler, preferably graduated in F stops or is it EI these days, and knock some Log sense into me? 


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <Steve@...> wrote :

Well, 18% gray is a standard on color charts. So I'd assume that they're saying that the LUT is developed so that a properly exposed 18% gray exposure (on a chip or color chart) comes out to 400 in 10bit. Properly exposed would mean white was 1024 and black was as close to 0 as you could get it. So basically they're defining part of the gamma curve for you - the part that's at 18%.

Steve



On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:20 AM, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Avid 8.3.1 and perhaps earlier version have an option to auto apply a color transform based on ama linking but as was pointed out earlier this week on the L2 it makes a lot of mistakes.  This combined with my recent LUT related trials and tribulations that made it seem like it's virtually impossible to get decent results from a once size fits all LUT for a given manufacturers Log file.  Arri seems good as are some of the Sony's but I couldn't seem to get a basic LUT for my Canon C300 footage and have adopted what others here have suggested and just color corrected out the LUT.  

I really don't see why the Log transforms can't just be untransformed out to 709 space but perhaps there is some aspect of the logarithmic math or the transform formula that I don't understand.  Arri site says that their LogC format anchors Scene 18% Grey to a data value of 400 in 10bit math.  As you adjust the exposure you get more or less stops above or below.  I don't know what determines Scene 18% grey.  Is that a constant value like a spectrometer probe on a monitor would measure and exact value of nits or is it something that takes the darkest to the lightest elements and from that establishes Scene 18% grey.  I'd really like to understand this better.

My experience seems to suggest that with all the varying log transforms from the different manufactures that each one behaves differently and that over and under exposures gets whacky pretty quick.  This is just my observation dealing with material I get in post.  I hope to get with a knowledgeable DIT /Cinematographer to get a better handle on how to deal properly with the material.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote :

What makes more sense is for the world to get onto the Aces band wagon and adopt transforms for output.

We do everything full range now and output appropriately, seems we could add transforms to and from outboard processing. 

What is distressing is that it's still down to manual labour choosing settings when every camera records all the needed info in the file header.

Id like to see auto input transforms in every system and a selection at export time - rec709, rgb or dci.

Mike

On 7 Aug 2015, at 9:20 am, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

"Color correcting means correcting things like these."
Yes but if I have a perfectly legal color corrected shot and I apply the tiffen day for night I would like for it to come back with the effect in 709 space not RGB so that I then have to add a color correction effect to bring it back into legal.  Now if the BCC legal check box is just clipping that's not great but usually I see it chopping the glows etc... that are whacky anyways but it doesn't take the base shot and alter the overall color space.

As you say the proper way would be to scale the effect output and I don't think that option is asking too much of an avx plugin.  I do see that when the Tiffen effects open in their own interface that there is a reason for them to display as RGB because more than likely they are being seen in a computer screen that is working in  RGB space.  Doesn't it make sense for those RGB levels to be scaled to 709 space if that's what I'm working on in my Avid timeline? 



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <Job_L2@...> wrote :

That's what happens if you manipulate color levels, which is what these filters do.
I think in the past, they were clipped/crushed to legal, which is not what you would normally want. Color correcting means correcting things like these.

On 6 aug. 2015, at 08:57, John Moore bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I notice that the effects come back into Avid at illegal RGB levels




__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (10)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Alternate Edit button

 

Just noticed the "alternate edit" button in command palette for the
first time. Anyone use that and under what circumstances?

From reading help, it seems a rather complicated way of showing versions
of something which I would tend to do with multiple tracks or separate
sequences...

Thx

__._,_.___

Posted by: Dan McCabe <danlist@bestmail.us>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Mixdown madness

 

And, I would think that mixing down anything should change the compression to however the mixdown is set.  I know I've done this in the past.

__._,_.___

Posted by: kenavid2@glueedit.com
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (7)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Mixdown madness

 

I tried both from beginning of program and beginning of bars.  Bars are DNx145.   Beginning of program is actually 220x.  Renders are NOT set to same as source.  Set to 145 as is mixdown.  220x mixdown was fine.

__._,_.___

Posted by: kenavid2@glueedit.com
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (8)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] RGB levels from Tiffen and other 3rd party AVX effects?

 

Well, 18% gray is a standard on color charts. So I'd assume that they're saying that the LUT is developed so that a properly exposed 18% gray exposure (on a chip or color chart) comes out to 400 in 10bit. Properly exposed would mean white was 1024 and black was as close to 0 as you could get it. So basically they're defining part of the gamma curve for you - the part that's at 18%.


Steve



On Aug 7, 2015, at 1:20 AM, bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Avid 8.3.1 and perhaps earlier version have an option to auto apply a color transform based on ama linking but as was pointed out earlier this week on the L2 it makes a lot of mistakes.  This combined with my recent LUT related trials and tribulations that made it seem like it's virtually impossible to get decent results from a once size fits all LUT for a given manufacturers Log file.  Arri seems good as are some of the Sony's but I couldn't seem to get a basic LUT for my Canon C300 footage and have adopted what others here have suggested and just color corrected out the LUT.  

I really don't see why the Log transforms can't just be untransformed out to 709 space but perhaps there is some aspect of the logarithmic math or the transform formula that I don't understand.  Arri site says that their LogC format anchors Scene 18% Grey to a data value of 400 in 10bit math.  As you adjust the exposure you get more or less stops above or below.  I don't know what determines Scene 18% grey.  Is that a constant value like a spectrometer probe on a monitor would measure and exact value of nits or is it something that takes the darkest to the lightest elements and from that establishes Scene 18% grey.  I'd really like to understand this better.

My experience seems to suggest that with all the varying log transforms from the different manufactures that each one behaves differently and that over and under exposures gets whacky pretty quick.  This is just my observation dealing with material I get in post.  I hope to get with a knowledgeable DIT /Cinematographer to get a better handle on how to deal properly with the material.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote :

What makes more sense is for the world to get onto the Aces band wagon and adopt transforms for output.

We do everything full range now and output appropriately, seems we could add transforms to and from outboard processing. 

What is distressing is that it's still down to manual labour choosing settings when every camera records all the needed info in the file header.

Id like to see auto input transforms in every system and a selection at export time - rec709, rgb or dci.

Mike

On 7 Aug 2015, at 9:20 am, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

"Color correcting means correcting things like these."
Yes but if I have a perfectly legal color corrected shot and I apply the tiffen day for night I would like for it to come back with the effect in 709 space not RGB so that I then have to add a color correction effect to bring it back into legal.  Now if the BCC legal check box is just clipping that's not great but usually I see it chopping the glows etc... that are whacky anyways but it doesn't take the base shot and alter the overall color space.

As you say the proper way would be to scale the effect output and I don't think that option is asking too much of an avx plugin.  I do see that when the Tiffen effects open in their own interface that there is a reason for them to display as RGB because more than likely they are being seen in a computer screen that is working in  RGB space.  Doesn't it make sense for those RGB levels to be scaled to 709 space if that's what I'm working on in my Avid timeline? 



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <Job_L2@...> wrote :

That's what happens if you manipulate color levels, which is what these filters do.
I think in the past, they were clipped/crushed to legal, which is not what you would normally want. Color correcting means correcting things like these.

On 6 aug. 2015, at 08:57, John Moore bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

I notice that the effects come back into Avid at illegal RGB levels




__._,_.___

Posted by: Steve Hullfish <steve@veralith.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (9)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Mixdown madness

 

Is the Premiere Pro list of properties more informative than looking at the movie properties in QT Pro 7?  It sounds like it might be detailed.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <film@...> wrote :

If you have Premiere pro, you can open it with the application and look at the properties.  It will list the 'video events' of your mixdown, type of codecs and have a graphic interface of where changes are happening.

__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (6)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Mixdown madness

 

If you have Premiere pro, you can open it with the application and look at the properties.  It will list the 'video events' of your mixdown, type of codecs and have a graphic interface of where changes are happening.

__._,_.___

Posted by: Ronen Pestes <film@ronenpestes.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (5)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___