Saturday, July 14, 2012

[Avid-L2] Re: Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

Steve,

I agree with you and Terry on the external scopes, but I have to tell you... A couple of weeks ago (in fact, right after I attended your presentation at Alpha Dogs), I was in a situation on-lining a show when the Tektronix scope took a dump at the beginning of the session. The rental company that supplied the system wasn't able to get a replacement for a couple of days, so I was forced to do most of the show using the internal Symphony scopes.
Two days later when the replacement finally arrived, I rechecked every shot and found that I didn't have to make a single adjustment.
So yeah, it's a PITA to have to rely on them, but in a pinch, they get the job done.

BTW, I was the guy who won a copy of your book in the raffle and got you to sign it. Thanks for that. The book is very helpful.

Steve Pomerantz
www.stevepomerantzeditorial.com

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:
>
> Obviously, I'm with Terry on not using the internal scopes.
>
> The internal scopes of Symphony/MC are especially hideous because even when they're working PROPERLY, they don't update AT ALL until you release the mouse. On some software, I know this is user selectable, so you can opt to use more horsepower on the scopes updating, but I don't think that's true with Avid. This updating thing can literally add HOURS to a show. I can do a correction with real scopes in 15 seconds that will take you 5 minutes to do. At some point the value of some external scope becomes evident unless your own professional time is nearly worthless. Over 4 years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6 a day! (And a scope should last for a lot longer than 4 years). So if that scope saves me a minute an hour it's paid for... obviously the math doesn't quite work out like that, but screwing up a single job in QC delivery can easily cost you that much alone in extra work, expense, shipping and lost client confidence.
>
> If you're serious about color correction, you really need real scopes. The Avid ones are SOOO low res and small, without the ability to zoom or basically do anything that real scopes can do. Saying you can't afford $6 a day to be a professional sends a very clear signal.
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Terence Curren wrote:
>
> > I never use the scopes in the Symphony, so I can't say for sure.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

In my setup (that I did not purchase myself, mind you), I use a Flanders
17" LCD. The built in scopes are decent and getting better all the time due
to firmware updates by FSI. It's fps refresh isn't a full 1:1, but it isn't
dependent on CPU, so it updates when you move sliders. The FSI also has a
handy alarm feature that can light up at over-IRE values. It works, too.
And a set of audio dBFs meters, and a phase scope, and an RGB parade, and
a...

Of course, in the machine room is a handy Tek 7000 which I rely on during
layoffs.

I'm not a heavy colorist, more of an online/QC guy, so what I'm using both
of these for is mostly checks and balances. YMMV...

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 8:20 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:

> **
>
>
> Steve I'm going to quote you when I tell my wife when I buy the Tek 8300
> scope which by your math should be more like $12.00/day. I just can't
> handle the limitations of one DSP on the Tek 5200. I guess I'll still be
> saying it's only $12.00/day in a muffled voice because I will be sleeping
> in the dog house but it will be worth it. Sometimes I wish I didn't like
> Tek scopes so much. At least I built the dog house extra big. ;-)
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:
> >
> > Obviously, I'm with Terry on not using the internal scopes.
> >
> > The internal scopes of Symphony/MC are especially hideous because even
> when they're working PROPERLY, they don't update AT ALL until you release
> the mouse. On some software, I know this is user selectable, so you can opt
> to use more horsepower on the scopes updating, but I don't think that's
> true with Avid. This updating thing can literally add HOURS to a show. I
> can do a correction with real scopes in 15 seconds that will take you 5
> minutes to do. At some point the value of some external scope becomes
> evident unless your own professional time is nearly worthless. Over 4
> years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6 a day!
> (And a scope should last for a lot longer than 4 years). So if that scope
> saves me a minute an hour it's paid for... obviously the math doesn't quite
> work out like that, but screwing up a single job in QC delivery can easily
> cost you that much alone in extra work, expense, shipping and lost client
> confidence.
> >
> > If you're serious about color correction, you really need real scopes.
> The Avid ones are SOOO low res and small, without the ability to zoom or
> basically do anything that real scopes can do. Saying you can't afford $6 a
> day to be a professional sends a very clear signal.
> >
> > Steve Hullfish
> > contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> > author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
> >
> >
> > On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Terence Curren wrote:
> >
> > > I never use the scopes in the Symphony, so I can't say for sure.
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



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[Avid-L2] Re: Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

Steve I'm going to quote you when I tell my wife when I buy the Tek 8300 scope which by your math should be more like $12.00/day. I just can't handle the limitations of one DSP on the Tek 5200. I guess I'll still be saying it's only $12.00/day in a muffled voice because I will be sleeping in the dog house but it will be worth it. Sometimes I wish I didn't like Tek scopes so much. At least I built the dog house extra big. ;-)

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:
>
> Obviously, I'm with Terry on not using the internal scopes.
>
> The internal scopes of Symphony/MC are especially hideous because even when they're working PROPERLY, they don't update AT ALL until you release the mouse. On some software, I know this is user selectable, so you can opt to use more horsepower on the scopes updating, but I don't think that's true with Avid. This updating thing can literally add HOURS to a show. I can do a correction with real scopes in 15 seconds that will take you 5 minutes to do. At some point the value of some external scope becomes evident unless your own professional time is nearly worthless. Over 4 years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6 a day! (And a scope should last for a lot longer than 4 years). So if that scope saves me a minute an hour it's paid for... obviously the math doesn't quite work out like that, but screwing up a single job in QC delivery can easily cost you that much alone in extra work, expense, shipping and lost client confidence.
>
> If you're serious about color correction, you really need real scopes. The Avid ones are SOOO low res and small, without the ability to zoom or basically do anything that real scopes can do. Saying you can't afford $6 a day to be a professional sends a very clear signal.
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
>
>
> On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Terence Curren wrote:
>
> > I never use the scopes in the Symphony, so I can't say for sure.
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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[Avid-L2] Re: Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

Thanks Patrick. I'll take a look at building outboard scopes on the cheap as you suggest, since I have both my previous MacPro tower and a copy of Scopebox. If I can use them to construct an interim solution until I can afford a more robust one, that would be great.

--David

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Patrick Inhofer <elists@...> wrote:
>
> On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...>wrote:
>
> > **
> >
> >
> > Over 4 years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6
> > a day!
> >
> You can put together a great set of external scopes for half that price
> using Ultrascopes or Vidscopes. And almost half-again if you re-purpose on
> an old Mac with Scopebox.
>
> All those give you real-time processing, no line skipping. All with
> multiple simultaneous scopes.
>
> I just don't see any reasonable way to use only the Avid interface (no
> external scopes, no external monitoring) for color grading - other than
> education where learning the concepts is more important than executing
> within a budget.
>
> And yes, I'm seeing some of the bugginess described by the OP in MC6 and
> Symphony 6. I'll click to a new shot and the grade from the previous shot
> 'sticks around'. Visual updating of internals scopes and monitoring is
> non-existant until the mouse is released... and even then it takes a few
> moments for the display to update. Yet the video card continually updates
> the image (which suggests Avid wasn't designed to use the 3-up display on
> its own).
>
> Related to this is using the Avid Artist Color surface... does anyone else
> agree that it is mostly useless in the HSL Offset tab?
>
> I can't dial-in that damn surface to give me any kind of responsiveness
> when making small moves - and it flies off the handle when making quick
> moves. Very frustrating. Especially knowing how responsive and smooth it is
> in Apple Color.
>
> On the plus side: It is interesting how that surface controls Curves. It's
> slower than using a mouse - which I find it gives me a bit more time to
> think and see exactly where I'm passing through as I'm manipulating points.
> I guess the Artist Color's value in Curves depends if you're in 'get it
> done now!' mode versus 'what can with do with this image?' mode.
>
> - patrick
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: OTish" Direct TV and Viacom Programming disruption?

 

On Jul 14, 2012, at 8:16 AM, Terence Curren wrote:
> <<I'm afraid that now this sparring between program producer and program delivered is the new normal. >>
>
> Going for the last minute bucks before internet TV changes the whole game?

And who's well-positioned to make a buck off internet TV? Comcast, Time Warner Cable, for two. Bandwidth caps and download quotas could become a much bigger deal. And those don't have to create any net-neutrality issues.

Jim

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[Avid-L2] Re: OTish" Direct TV and Viacom Programming disruption?

 

After reading some articles it does seem the under toad here is the lack of a'la carte choices for viewers and distributors. As has been pointed out in this thread the internet distribution model is looking better and better when these kind of service interruptions happen. Even though Viacom has pulled the. Plug on new shows on the internet I read last night they are making an exception for the One Direction special on nickelodean. Makes my daughter happy and it makes me wonder how powerful Simon Cowel's marketing machine is.
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> No sports... no angry fans. Who has the leverage now? Snookie?
>
> mark
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Alan Miller <ammfx@> wrote:
> >
> > This has been going on for years in New York between Time Warner cable and Cablevision. Every couple of years the same dispute arises. Time Warner wants Cablevision to pay more money to them for carrying the New York Knicks which Cablevision owns. The first few times this happened, they settled at the midnight deadline. But then they didn't settle and Cablevision was off the air for three or four days until they settled. This past year they were off the air for over 20 days. The governor got involved the state Senate got involved but still no solution. Strangely enough this was the year of Linsanity and the pressure to view the New York Knicks amazing run and Cablevision's loss of a tremendous amount of advertising revenue finally pressured both sides to reach an agreement.
> > I'm afraid that now this sparring between program producer and program delivered is the new normal.
> > --
> > Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
> >
> > Mark <markraudonis@> wrote:
> >
> > I think Viacom will blink.
> >
> > mark
> >
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
> > >
> > > OTish" Direct TV and Viacom Programming disruption?
> > > I know traditionally in the Television/ Motion Picture business it is the distributors that generally seem to make a profit more so than the producers. Both can prosper but it seems the distributors have the upper hand. Right now there are negotiation problems between Viacom and Direct TV. The result is Direct TV pulled the plug on 26 Viacom channels until they can work out the fee hike Viacom wants per subscriber. I'm curious what others think about this situation as it could and does effect the availability of our products to be seen by some 20 million Direct TV subscribers. Both sides are taking stabs at the other. I don't really have a side other than it seems to me that Viacom as the media supplier and the entity that hires production companies to produce programming has a bigger influence on my employment than does Direct TV. I figure that Direct TV and other suppliers of Satellite services have to pay the government for use of the
> > > spectrum they use because the public "owns" the airwaves but I think the public good is not being served here. I felt the same way when after the merger of XM and Sirus Sat radio that then decided to pass on royalty costs that they had to pay after losing a long court battle. As the battle has grown this week Viacom pulled a lot of it's programming off the internet so people have lost any access to the shows. I'm curious how others view this and how it relates to the programming we provide. I'd hate to have this have been a premiere week for one of my shows. I'm sure this would have a damaging effect on the ratings. I'm not, "Mad As Hell" yet, but should I be? ;-)
> > >
> > > John Moore
> > >
> > > Barking Trout Productions
> > >
> > > Studio City, CA
> > >
> > > bigfish@
> > >
> > > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > _____________________________________________
> >
> >
> > Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

On Sat, Jul 14, 2012 at 1:31 PM, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@veralith.com>wrote:

> **
>
>
> Over 4 years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6
> a day!
>
You can put together a great set of external scopes for half that price
using Ultrascopes or Vidscopes. And almost half-again if you re-purpose on
an old Mac with Scopebox.

All those give you real-time processing, no line skipping. All with
multiple simultaneous scopes.

I just don't see any reasonable way to use only the Avid interface (no
external scopes, no external monitoring) for color grading - other than
education where learning the concepts is more important than executing
within a budget.

And yes, I'm seeing some of the bugginess described by the OP in MC6 and
Symphony 6. I'll click to a new shot and the grade from the previous shot
'sticks around'. Visual updating of internals scopes and monitoring is
non-existant until the mouse is released... and even then it takes a few
moments for the display to update. Yet the video card continually updates
the image (which suggests Avid wasn't designed to use the 3-up display on
its own).

Related to this is using the Avid Artist Color surface... does anyone else
agree that it is mostly useless in the HSL Offset tab?

I can't dial-in that damn surface to give me any kind of responsiveness
when making small moves - and it flies off the handle when making quick
moves. Very frustrating. Especially knowing how responsive and smooth it is
in Apple Color.

On the plus side: It is interesting how that surface controls Curves. It's
slower than using a mouse - which I find it gives me a bit more time to
think and see exactly where I'm passing through as I'm manipulating points.
I guess the Artist Color's value in Curves depends if you're in 'get it
done now!' mode versus 'what can with do with this image?' mode.

- patrick

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: OTish" Direct TV and Viacom Programming disruption?

 

No sports... no angry fans. Who has the leverage now? Snookie?

mark

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Alan Miller <ammfx@...> wrote:
>
> This has been going on for years in New York between Time Warner cable and Cablevision. Every couple of years the same dispute arises. Time Warner wants Cablevision to pay more money to them for carrying the New York Knicks which Cablevision owns. The first few times this happened, they settled at the midnight deadline. But then they didn't settle and Cablevision was off the air for three or four days until they settled. This past year they were off the air for over 20 days. The governor got involved the state Senate got involved but still no solution. Strangely enough this was the year of Linsanity and the pressure to view the New York Knicks amazing run and Cablevision's loss of a tremendous amount of advertising revenue finally pressured both sides to reach an agreement.
> I'm afraid that now this sparring between program producer and program delivered is the new normal.
> --
> Sent from my Android phone with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.
>
> Mark <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> I think Viacom will blink.
>
> mark
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, John Moore <bigfish@> wrote:
> >
> > OTish" Direct TV and Viacom Programming disruption?
> > I know traditionally in the Television/ Motion Picture business it is the distributors that generally seem to make a profit more so than the producers. Both can prosper but it seems the distributors have the upper hand. Right now there are negotiation problems between Viacom and Direct TV. The result is Direct TV pulled the plug on 26 Viacom channels until they can work out the fee hike Viacom wants per subscriber. I'm curious what others think about this situation as it could and does effect the availability of our products to be seen by some 20 million Direct TV subscribers. Both sides are taking stabs at the other. I don't really have a side other than it seems to me that Viacom as the media supplier and the entity that hires production companies to produce programming has a bigger influence on my employment than does Direct TV. I figure that Direct TV and other suppliers of Satellite services have to pay the government for use of the
> > spectrum they use because the public "owns" the airwaves but I think the public good is not being served here. I felt the same way when after the merger of XM and Sirus Sat radio that then decided to pass on royalty costs that they had to pay after losing a long court battle. As the battle has grown this week Viacom pulled a lot of it's programming off the internet so people have lost any access to the shows. I'm curious how others view this and how it relates to the programming we provide. I'd hate to have this have been a premiere week for one of my shows. I'm sure this would have a damaging effect on the ratings. I'm not, "Mad As Hell" yet, but should I be? ;-)
> >
> > John Moore
> >
> > Barking Trout Productions
> >
> > Studio City, CA
> >
> > bigfish@
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>
>
>
> _____________________________________________
>
>
> Search the official Complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

Obviously, I'm with Terry on not using the internal scopes.

The internal scopes of Symphony/MC are especially hideous because even when they're working PROPERLY, they don't update AT ALL until you release the mouse. On some software, I know this is user selectable, so you can opt to use more horsepower on the scopes updating, but I don't think that's true with Avid. This updating thing can literally add HOURS to a show. I can do a correction with real scopes in 15 seconds that will take you 5 minutes to do. At some point the value of some external scope becomes evident unless your own professional time is nearly worthless. Over 4 years, a $6,000 scope at 50 weeks a year is only $30 a week... $6 a day! (And a scope should last for a lot longer than 4 years). So if that scope saves me a minute an hour it's paid for... obviously the math doesn't quite work out like that, but screwing up a single job in QC delivery can easily cost you that much alone in extra work, expense, shipping and lost client confidence.

If you're serious about color correction, you really need real scopes. The Avid ones are SOOO low res and small, without the ability to zoom or basically do anything that real scopes can do. Saying you can't afford $6 a day to be a professional sends a very clear signal.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"

On Jul 14, 2012, at 11:26 AM, Terence Curren wrote:

> I never use the scopes in the Symphony, so I can't say for sure.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

I never use the copes in the Symphony, so I can't say for sure. But I can tell you everything is a bit laggy in V6 color correction mode. And windows in general can sometimes stick around before they refresh. So this doesn't surprise me at all. Remember, this is a V1 product, and I would stay in 5.5 unless there is something you REALLY need in 6.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "artisanaltv" <davidnjfranklin@...> wrote:
>
> Hey All,
>
> So I'm trying to troubleshoot my new Symphony 6.0 Software only version, and it's been a tough slog.
>
> Right now I'm facing a weirdness where my video scopes in Color Correction mode don't update properly. As I switch from shot to shot, the information "piles up" on top of the previous frame so instead of getting a clean look at each shot, I get an amalgamation of everything in the last four or five shots combined.
>
> I can get it to refresh by switching between RGB Parade and Y Waveform, or into Vectorscope. But if I leave any one of these up and keep working, pretty soon they're useless until I do the manual "refresh" trick.
>
> Anyone else facing this issue? Any suggestions or workarounds? I really need my scopes to work so I can color correct, and right now they're not working.
>
> Just for reference, I'm on a 2.4GHz 12 core running 10.7.4 with 32 GB of RAM and an ATI Radeon 5770.
>
> Thanks.
>

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Re: [Avid-L2] OT: The Edit Button

 

Nicely done!

Shirley

-----Original Message-----
From: Robert Lawson <avidrhl@gmail.com>
To: Avid-L2 <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sat, Jul 14, 2012 7:12 am
Subject: [Avid-L2] OT: The Edit Button

Weekend humor, I hope:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7DD6WAr4A4Y

---
Rob Lawson
System Administrator, ACSR ISIS, Windows & Interplay
CBS News

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[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

This is probably just you.

I hate to say this, because everyone is probably sick of me giving the same advice over and over and over, but...

Have you tried creating a new User? It's very possible that your user settings are corrupt and that the only evidence of it is the "piling up of waveforms."

Start with that. I was just showing someone the scopes in Symphony yesterday on software-only and they worked... well I won't say perfectly, but I will say "like they're supposed to."

The other trouble shooting thing you'll have to give us is which OS you're using and which version of the OS. And a video card. And, I'm not sure that Radeon card is qualified, but I don't know for sure.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"

On Jul 14, 2012, at 10:49 AM, artisanaltv wrote:

> As I switch from shot to shot, the information "piles up" on top of the previous frame so instead of getting a clean look at each shot, I get an amalgamation of everything in the last four or five shots combined.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Color Correction Scope problem Symphony 6.0

 

Hey All,

So I'm trying to troubleshoot my new Symphony 6.0 Software only version, and it's been a tough slog.

Right now I'm facing a weirdness where my video scopes in Color Correction mode don't update properly. As I switch from shot to shot, the information "piles up" on top of the previous frame so instead of getting a clean look at each shot, I get an amalgamation of everything in the last four or five shots combined.

I can get it to refresh by switching between RGB Parade and Y Waveform, or into Vectorscope. But if I leave any one of these up and keep working, pretty soon they're useless until I do the manual "refresh" trick.

Anyone else facing this issue? Any suggestions or workarounds? I really need my scopes to work so I can color correct, and right now they're not working.

Just for reference, I'm on a 2.4GHz 12 core running 10.7.4 with 32 GB of RAM and an ATI Radeon 5770.

Thanks.

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