Saturday, November 7, 2015

[Avid-L2] Adobe Media Encoder 23.976 coversion to 59.94i Time Code Base?

 

Having just jumped into using Adobe Media Encoder other than the 3:2 pulldown cadence it seems to work well.  I found my resulting files had NonDrop time code.  The code matched perfectly with slates and program start hitting right to the frame.  I used QT Change to change the time code to drop frame and that seems fine.

Today I played with the time code overlay and I found that when I turned it on it seemed to display as Drop Frame code based on the ";" instead of ":".  Also the file started at 59:00:00 and the time code overlay displayed 00:59:00:02 resulting in the overlay being two frames off at program start.  I found the time code offset and setting to -2 corrects the offset so things line up.  My quandary is why is the time code overlay showing drop frame code given the files I made the other day ended up with non drop code and I see no way to set that differently.  I would have expected that I would see Non Drop code displayed in the overlay.  Is there a setting somewhere I'm missing?  The interface seems pretty straight forward but it's very possible I'm just missing a menu somewhere.  Can anyone clarify this behavior?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

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Posted by: John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

You are describing the temporal aspect.  Isn't there also a spatial aspect in play?  If I put the video that should be in F2 into F1 and vice versa that will created Jaggies on a diagonal line won't it.  Just like in scratch removal on interlace material it's better to use a 2 field relative offset than one because that will have a 1 line vertical shift.  I completely agree there is the temporal judder you describe but it sure seems there is going to a stair stepping introduced in a diagonal line.  Am I thinking about this wrong. 

If only I had some example footage.  Wait according to this thread I just need to watch some broadcast television and I'm sure to run into some soon.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :

It looks like a 'juddering' artifact with motion in the picture.  For example, if there was something moving across the screen left to right, the wrong field order would be seen as the motion 'jumps backwards' on field 1, then forward again on field 2.  It's a kind of stutter that just looks bad.

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
                NBC Today Show
        Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus


On Nov 7, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Frank Felker FJFelker@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This thread has me wondering...what does reversed field order look like?  I see jaggie lines all the time on-air..is that actually reversed filed order?  It's usually on a 4x3 spot on a HD channel.

frank



On 11/6/2015 11:30 PM, Dennis Degan DennyD1@... [Avid-L2] wrote:

I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.




Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York

On Nov 6, 2015, at 8:57 PM, bigfish@... wrote:



I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.


---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York



__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (23)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

It looks like a 'juddering' artifact with motion in the picture.  For example, if there was something moving across the screen left to right, the wrong field order would be seen as the motion 'jumps backwards' on field 1, then forward again on field 2.  It's a kind of stutter that just looks bad.

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
                NBC Today Show
        Sent from my iPhone 6 Plus


On Nov 7, 2015, at 10:11 AM, Frank Felker FJFelker@gmail.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

This thread has me wondering...what does reversed field order look like?  I see jaggie lines all the time on-air..is that actually reversed filed order?  It's usually on a 4x3 spot on a HD channel.

frank



On 11/6/2015 11:30 PM, Dennis Degan DennyD1@verizon.net [Avid-L2] wrote:

I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.




Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York

On Nov 6, 2015, at 8:57 PM, bigfish@pacbell.net wrote:



I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.


---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York



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Posted by: DennyD1 <dennyd1@verizon.net>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

Could you elaborate on the no fields in 4K?  After a recent Tektronix seminar I'm a bit more aware of the format.  Basically it's 4 quadrants of HD signals getting mashed together.  There are was a variant that mulitplexed the 4 quadrants data, can't recall the exact name, but that version is not in use by anyone that the presenter knew about IIRC.  Given it's really 4 HD signals is there no variant where those HD signals are Psf in nature. 

I was told that you could view each quadrants SDI signal on a regular HD scope and that All the Hanc and Vanc data is in the first quadrant with the exception of the second 16 channel group of embedded audio which lives in the 2nd quadrant.  I'm forgetting the exact terminology for the Quadrants.  Are they 1 thru 4 or A thru D or something else like Link A,B,C,D?



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote :

That's generally correctly interlace footage being mushed into progressive then compressed to hell.

Reversed is not so much jaggies as jittery flutter motion as you see frames in the correct order but later fields before earlier ones.

It's no big deal though there are no fields in 4K.

Mike 

On 7 Nov 2015, at 3:11 PM, Frank Felker FJFelker@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

This thread has me wondering...what does reversed field order look like?  I see jaggie lines all the time on-air..is that actually reversed filed order?  It's usually on a 4x3 spot on a HD channel.

frank



On 11/6/2015 11:30 PM, Dennis Degan DennyD1@... [Avid-L2] wrote:

I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.




Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York

On Nov 6, 2015, at 8:57 PM, bigfish@... wrote:



I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.


---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York



__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (21)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

That's generally correctly interlace footage being mushed into progressive then compressed to hell.

Reversed is not so much jaggies as jittery flutter motion as you see frames in the correct order but later fields before earlier ones.

It's no big deal though there are no fields in 4K.

Mike 

On 7 Nov 2015, at 3:11 PM, Frank Felker FJFelker@gmail.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

This thread has me wondering...what does reversed field order look like?  I see jaggie lines all the time on-air..is that actually reversed filed order?  It's usually on a 4x3 spot on a HD channel.

frank



On 11/6/2015 11:30 PM, Dennis Degan DennyD1@verizon.net [Avid-L2] wrote:

I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.




Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York

On Nov 6, 2015, at 8:57 PM, bigfish@pacbell.net wrote:



I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.


---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York



__._,_.___

Posted by: "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (20)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

This thread has me wondering...what does reversed field order look like?  I see jaggie lines all the time on-air..is that actually reversed filed order?  It's usually on a 4x3 spot on a HD channel.

frank



On 11/6/2015 11:30 PM, Dennis Degan DennyD1@verizon.net [Avid-L2] wrote:

I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.




Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York

On Nov 6, 2015, at 8:57 PM, bigfish@pacbell.net wrote:



I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.


---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York



__._,_.___

Posted by: Frank Felker <fjfelker@gmail.com>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (19)
this is the Avid-L2

.

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Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

That probably was me.
I have the sd versions, but just crop the hd to 480 or 486

Bouke

Sent from mobile

Op 7 nov. 2015 om 06:24 heeft bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> het volgende geschreven:

 

So who was it that came up with that trick?  Am I remembering correctly that there was a version for SD as well?  I can't help thinking of the CRT scan lines that weren't perfectly horizontal but had a little slope to them.  is the field matte perfectly horizontal with one line black and one line white or does it have a little slope to the lines?  I'm thinking in the digital world it's perfectly horizontal while back in the analogue days there would have been a slope to the matte when both pickup and display devices were based on the scanning electron beam.  Been a long day but now I've got scan lines stuck in my head.  I might have to go listen to it's a small world just to get out of this loop.  ;-)



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@verizon.net> wrote :


I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Bouke ( Edit'B)" <bouke@editb.nl>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (18)
this is the Avid-L2

.

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[Avid-L2] Re: Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to

 

Why not export the clip with forced wrong field order. Then ama back in with correct field order. Much simpler.

Pat from his mobile.

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Posted by: Pat Horridge <pat@horridge.org.uk>
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (1)
this is the Avid-L2

.

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Friday, November 6, 2015

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

So who was it that came up with that trick?  Am I remembering correctly that there was a version for SD as well?  I can't help thinking of the CRT scan lines that weren't perfectly horizontal but had a little slope to them.  is the field matte perfectly horizontal with one line black and one line white or does it have a little slope to the lines?  I'm thinking in the digital world it's perfectly horizontal while back in the analogue days there would have been a slope to the matte when both pickup and display devices were based on the scanning electron beam.  Been a long day but now I've got scan lines stuck in my head.  I might have to go listen to it's a small world just to get out of this loop.  ;-)



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@verizon.net> wrote :


I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.

__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (17)
this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?


I write:

I have the matte to fix wrong field order for 1920x1080 video as a TIFF.  Here's how you use it:
Put same vid on two tracks. Offset the lower track by one frame EARLIER. Import the TIFF to make an Avid video clip. Apply the imported TIFF to track 3. Add Matte Key Effect to track 3 (the imported TIFF). If the clip still strobes, invert the Matte Key in the Effects Editor. Render if necessary. Enjoy the results.

Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?

 

I remember someone had a very interesting approach to fixing field order involving hicon mattes for each of the fields scan lines that was applied as a matte key on a dup of the shot on an upper track and shifted a frame which, with the hold out matte applied keyed back in the proper field of video.  IIRC that Bouke but I may be wrong.  What are other methods of correcting this.  I've dealt with deinterlace with BCC but that's not what reverse field order is.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <DennyD1@...> wrote :


On Nov 5, 2015, at 10:58 PM, Mark Spano wrote:

> And don't get me started about reversed field order - that's even worse, and just as prevalent. I honestly wonder what some editors are looking at when I see that stuff on air.

I offer:

I have the answer for that.  There are two reasons why this occurs: (1) Editors are not seeing the error while editing because they are cutting on so-called 'desktop' editors; Avids installed without broadcast-output hardware (Nitris DX, etc.).  The reversed field order error cannot be seen on a computer monitor in the Avid interface. (2) Editors don't know what to do to fix it even if they could see it.  In addition, Avid doesn't make it easy to fix.  There are a number of ways to fix the error.  All of them take time and results vary or have limitations.  So the error ends up on the air.  I see it all the time at my place and it drives me up the wall.  Sometimes, you just have to let it go . . .   let it go . . . . .    :(

Dennis Degan, Video Editor-Consultant-Knowledge Bank
    NBC Today Show, New York


__._,_.___

Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
Reply via web post Reply to sender Reply to group Start a New Topic Messages in this topic (15)
this is the Avid-L2

.

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