Saturday, January 9, 2016

Re: [Avid-L2] 59.94I 2:3 Pulldown Media into a 23.976P project transcode vs. consolidate?

 

I agree with everything you're saying here. The only real solution here for your AEs is either:

1:

- AMA link the 59.94i clip in a 23.976p project
- drop it into a sequence
- promote motion adapter
- set source to Film with 2:3 Pulldown, output to Progressive
- detect cadence (assuming the entire clip is constant cadence)
- Mixdown the sequence
- rename the mixdown clip whatever the source clip was named
- change the mixdown clip's Start TC to the correct Start TC of the original clip
- use this new clip as the new master clip in MC

or

2:

- load clip in either Compressor or Cinema Tools
- detect cadence (Cinema Tools)
- set to Remove Pulldown
- create new master clip
- then use this as the new master clip in MC


Otherwise, your consolidate and pulldown detection per-edit is the way to go.


On Sat, Jan 9, 2016 at 10:18 PM, John Moore bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I know that in general taking 29.97/59.94 back to 23.976 is yucky.  I have a 23.976 series that has taken some 59.94I DVCProHD tape that was shot at 23.976 with 2:3 pulldown added by the deck and captured as 59.94i.  When it is cut into the 23.976 timeline the motion adapter of 125% is added.  I can then promote and set the motion adapter to 2:3 pulldown source with progressive output and once I detect the cadence everything is clean. 

The problem I have is that the AEs have been in the habit of then transcoding the media to the target sequence frame rate.  This practice worked fine when going from 23.976 material tp a 59.94 sequence with Avid adding 2:3 pulldown but when going the other direction it introduces blended yucky frames and even though with the proper settings on the motion adapter before transcoding the resulting media is messed up.  When going from 23.976 into a 59.94 sequence as long as Avid knew the source was progressive it handled it correctly adding 2:3.  Is there anything similar when going the other direction?  I can set the motion adapter to get correct clean frames from the 2:3 material but the resulting media after a transcode/convert is flawed and the motion adapter can't clean it up.  I understand why this is happening because Avid is doing some sort of frame blending speed correction which results in blended yucky frames at 23.976.  I understand that is the nature of the beast when dealing with a true 29.97/59.94 interlace source but given I have 2:3 pulldown material is there a way to alert Avid to the cadence and have it do pulldown removal on the transcode/convert instead of a blended yucky mess.

The solution I've come up with is to consolidate the media instead of transcode.  This keeps it at it's native frame rate.  I have found that once consolidated I have to go back in and tweak the motion adapter.  I have to detect the cadence a second time and I believe I had to also tell it again the source was 2:3 pulldown.  Seems after the consolidate it forgets that or maybe it just loses its' anchor frame for the cadence.

Is there a more elegant solution than consolidate and retweaking the motion adapter?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net


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Posted by: Mark Spano <cutandcover@gmail.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Re: [Avid-L2] 59.94I 2:3 Pulldown Media into a 23.976P project transcode vs. consolidate?

 

It's ok once we go HD it will all just be 24fps universal mastering.

Mike

On 10 Jan 2016, at 9:48 AM, John Moore bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I know that in general taking 29.97/59.94 back to 23.976 is yucky.  I have a 23.976 series that has taken some 59.94I DVCProHD tape that was shot at 23.976 with 2:3 pulldown added by the deck and captured as 59.94i.  When it is cut into the 23.976 timeline the motion adapter of 125% is added.  I can then promote and set the motion adapter to 2:3 pulldown source with progressive output and once I detect the cadence everything is clean. 

The problem I have is that the AEs have been in the habit of then transcoding the media to the target sequence frame rate.  This practice worked fine when going from 23.976 material tp a 59.94 sequence with Avid adding 2:3 pulldown but when going the other direction it introduces blended yucky frames and even though with the proper settings on the motion adapter before transcoding the resulting media is messed up.  When going from 23.976 into a 59.94 sequence as long as Avid knew the source was progressive it handled it correctly adding 2:3.  Is there anything similar when going the other direction?  I can set the motion adapter to get correct clean frames from the 2:3 material but the resulting media after a transcode/convert is flawed and the motion adapter can't clean it up.  I understand why this is happening because Avid is doing some sort of frame blending speed correction which results in blended yucky frames at 23.976.  I understand that is the nature of the beast when dealing with a true 29.97/59.94 interlace source but given I have 2:3 pulldown material is there a way to alert Avid to the cadence and have it do pulldown removal on the transcode/convert instead of a blended yucky mess.

The solution I've come up with is to consolidate the media instead of transcode.  This keeps it at it's native frame rate.  I have found that once consolidated I have to go back in and tweak the motion adapter.  I have to detect the cadence a second time and I believe I had to also tell it again the source was 2:3 pulldown.  Seems after the consolidate it forgets that or maybe it just loses its' anchor frame for the cadence.

Is there a more elegant solution than consolidate and retweaking the motion adapter?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] 59.94I 2:3 Pulldown Media into a 23.976P project transcode vs. consolidate?

 

I know that in general taking 29.97/59.94 back to 23.976 is yucky.  I have a 23.976 series that has taken some 59.94I DVCProHD tape that was shot at 23.976 with 2:3 pulldown added by the deck and captured as 59.94i.  When it is cut into the 23.976 timeline the motion adapter of 125% is added.  I can then promote and set the motion adapter to 2:3 pulldown source with progressive output and once I detect the cadence everything is clean. 

The problem I have is that the AEs have been in the habit of then transcoding the media to the target sequence frame rate.  This practice worked fine when going from 23.976 material tp a 59.94 sequence with Avid adding 2:3 pulldown but when going the other direction it introduces blended yucky frames and even though with the proper settings on the motion adapter before transcoding the resulting media is messed up.  When going from 23.976 into a 59.94 sequence as long as Avid knew the source was progressive it handled it correctly adding 2:3.  Is there anything similar when going the other direction?  I can set the motion adapter to get correct clean frames from the 2:3 material but the resulting media after a transcode/convert is flawed and the motion adapter can't clean it up.  I understand why this is happening because Avid is doing some sort of frame blending speed correction which results in blended yucky frames at 23.976.  I understand that is the nature of the beast when dealing with a true 29.97/59.94 interlace source but given I have 2:3 pulldown material is there a way to alert Avid to the cadence and have it do pulldown removal on the transcode/convert instead of a blended yucky mess.

The solution I've come up with is to consolidate the media instead of transcode.  This keeps it at it's native frame rate.  I have found that once consolidated I have to go back in and tweak the motion adapter.  I have to detect the cadence a second time and I believe I had to also tell it again the source was 2:3 pulldown.  Seems after the consolidate it forgets that or maybe it just loses its' anchor frame for the cadence.

Is there a more elegant solution than consolidate and retweaking the motion adapter?
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

__._,_.___

Posted by: John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

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[Avid-L2] Re: Can't right click and get source setting in Avid 8.2?

 

That's interesting, I hadn't thought of doubling up. That makes me wonder if the order of the Color Transforms is important too.  My gut would be to expand to full range, like you said then add the LUT below/after that.  I'll have to play a bit more.

As far as the Color Space choice at top I'm pretty sure when I had stuff ama linked it made a difference but I'll have to go back and confirm that.  Just like before LUTs were an option the older source settings you could choose if the source got compressed from graphics to video and vice versa.  Then any transcodes would reflect that level.  I never tried to adjust the color space after that to see if it would alter the video level once transcoded.  My guess is it doesn't.

On a related note I had received a .mga LUT.  Is that a LUT from Apple Color.  It was unusable but a google got me to a creative cow thread where someone had converted the 5D Cinestyle LUT from Technicolor.  I know Arri has a LUT builder on their site IIRC and I read LUT Buddy (which I believe is free) can be used to convert LUTs to other formats.  What is the LUT manipulation tool of choice?  Of course my choice would be forget the LUT and light it the way you want it but with LUTs being this weeks buzz word I have to play along.  I do find the Arri Log C to Rec 709 in Resolve to be quite useful like I with all LUTs would be.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <pat@...> wrote :

When you are in the color adapter section of the AMA source setting the top color space is just an indication of what MC thinks the source is in terms of color space. I've never found changing it to make any difference but to be safe I set it to what I know the source is.
Its what's in the big box below that is important.
If this is empty then no LUT or correction is applied but it may have a full range to 709 adapter applied.

If you have Rec 709 content and want to use a LUT designed for full range then make sure there are no LUTs in that box. Then add a Rec 709 to full scale LUT then whatever full range specific LUT you want.

You may still get crap results if the LUT was designed to be used with content that had a look applied to it or a specific camera feature.

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

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[Avid-L2] Re: Can't right click and get source setting in Avid 8.2?

 

When you are in the color adapter section of the AMA source setting the top color space is just an indication of what MC thinks the source is in terms of color space. I've never found changing it to make any difference but to be safe I set it to what I know the source is.
Its what's in the big box below that is important.
If this is empty then no LUT or correction is applied but it may have a full range to 709 adapter applied.

If you have Rec 709 content and want to use a LUT designed for full range then make sure there are no LUTs in that box. Then add a Rec 709 to full scale LUT then whatever full range specific LUT you want.

You may still get crap results if the LUT was designed to be used with content that had a look applied to it or a specific camera feature.

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Posted by: pat@horridge.org.uk
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this is the Avid-L2

.

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Friday, January 8, 2016

[Avid-L2] Re: Can't right click and get source setting in Avid 8.2?

 

Okay I installed 8.4 Avid and now I can get to source settings and apply the LUT.  I haven't worked much with these in Avid.  As I'm experimenting it seems the source color space has no effect on media that is already ingested.  I know in past projects that when ama linked to Sony F55 Avid was set to automatically apply the Sony S3 gamut curve to the ama'd material.  That is a preference that can be changed. 

Am I correct in assuming that color space parameter is something that only effects ama linked material?  It seems my already transcoded material doesn't change when Color Space is changed even with hitting apply and okay.  Seems like the color space is more like an input LUT or processor before the media is transcoded.  Perhaps if this was consolidated media things would react differently.  I know there are preferences for backing in a LUT when transcoding or leaving it as is but maintaining an active LUT.  Is this why I'm seeing no change with Color Space?

The color Transformation do effect the existing clips so that is where I'm applying the DP LUT.  Can you guess what this wonderful LUT looks like?  Here's a hint.  When I take Rubin to the Dog Park I get a similar result after he has run around a bit.  The correction for that requires a scooper. 

Clearly the LUT I was given, which appears to be a standard downloaded not custom LUT, was designed to work in a full range world not my Rec 709.  This is very much my complaint with magic bullet looks and other effects package that default to full range.  I understand there are two sides to this view but why would I want a LUT that crushes things down to zero so I then have to color correct back up to 16.  Is it nearing the time I need to contemplate working in an RGB project?  I have always felt it's best to work in the color space you will deliver in and for me that has been and still is Rec 709 for the foreseeable future.  I feel like I'd start chasing my tail to be switching from one color space to another depending on source material.  I'm curious what obstacles others face in this area.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

Trying to apply a cinestyle .mga LUT from a DP.  I found a Creative Cow thread that had a link to someone who had converted the .mga into a cube LUT for Resolve.  I was able to apply that in Resolve and found it looked like crap but my Resolve doesn't have an output card at work so I wanted to install the LUT in my Avid 8.2 drive.  I was able to install the LUT in the Color Management but then when I find an interview clip in a bin that I want to apply the LUT to I right click on the highlighted clip and click source settings but nothing happens.  No dialogue box of any kind.  I'm use to getting the prompt that this clip doesn't allow source settings if it's in a codec Avid doesn't want to mess with but I get nothing at all.  This is Mac OS 10.9.5 MC 8.2.  I know I've done this on my home MC 8.3.1.  Is this a known bug?  I know 8.4 came out but I'm thinking I might just downgrade to 8,3,1 to see if that works like it does at home.  Any suggestions.
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@...

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Re: Can't right click and get source setting in Avid 8.2?

 

Okay I installed 8.4 Avid and now I can get to source settings and apply the LUT.  I haven't worked much with these in Avid.  As I'm experimenting it seems the source color space has no effect on media that is already ingested.  I know in past projects that when ama linked to Sony F55 Avid was set to automatically apply the Sony S3 gamut curve to the ama'd material.  That is a preference that can be changed. 

Am I correct in assuming that color space parameter is something that only effects ama linked material?  It seems my already transcoded material doesn't change when Color Space is changed even with hitting apply and okay.  Seems like the color space is more like an input LUT or processor before the media is transcoded.  Perhaps if this was consolidated media things would react differently.  I know there are preferences for backing in a LUT when transcoding or leaving it as is but maintaining an active LUT.  Is this why I'm seeing no change with Color Space?

The color Transformation do effect the existing clips so that is where I'm applying the DP LUT.  Can you guess what this wonderful LUT looks like?  Here's a hint.  When I take Rubin to the Dog Park I get a similar result after he has run around a bit.  The correction for that requires a scooper. 

Clearly the LUT I was given, which appears to be a standard downloaded not custom LUT, was designed to work in a full range world not my Rec 709.  This is very much my complaint with magic bullet looks and other effects package that default to full range.  I understand there are two sides to this view but why would I want a LUT that crushes things down to zero so I then have to color correct back up to 16.  Is it nearing the time I need to contemplate working in an RGB project?  I have always felt it's best to work in the color space you will deliver in and for me that has been and still is Rec 709 for the foreseeable future.  I feel like I'd start chasing my tail to be switching from one color space to another depending on source material.  I'm curious what obstacles others face in this area.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

Trying to apply a cinestyle .mga LUT from a DP.  I found a Creative Cow thread that had a link to someone who had converted the .mga into a cube LUT for Resolve.  I was able to apply that in Resolve and found it looked like crap but my Resolve doesn't have an output card at work so I wanted to install the LUT in my Avid 8.2 drive.  I was able to install the LUT in the Color Management but then when I find an interview clip in a bin that I want to apply the LUT to I right click on the highlighted clip and click source settings but nothing happens.  No dialogue box of any kind.  I'm use to getting the prompt that this clip doesn't allow source settings if it's in a codec Avid doesn't want to mess with but I get nothing at all.  This is Mac OS 10.9.5 MC 8.2.  I know I've done this on my home MC 8.3.1.  Is this a known bug?  I know 8.4 came out but I'm thinking I might just downgrade to 8,3,1 to see if that works like it does at home.  Any suggestions.
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@...

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Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

[Avid-L2] Can't right click and get source setting in Avid 8.2?

 

Trying to apply a cinestyle .mga LUT from a DP.  I found a Creative Cow thread that had a link to someone who had converted the .mga into a cube LUT for Resolve.  I was able to apply that in Resolve and found it looked like crap but my Resolve doesn't have an output card at work so I wanted to install the LUT in my Avid 8.2 drive.  I was able to install the LUT in the Color Management but then when I find an interview clip in a bin that I want to apply the LUT to I right click on the highlighted clip and click source settings but nothing happens.  No dialogue box of any kind.  I'm use to getting the prompt that this clip doesn't allow source settings if it's in a codec Avid doesn't want to mess with but I get nothing at all.  This is Mac OS 10.9.5 MC 8.2.  I know I've done this on my home MC 8.3.1.  Is this a known bug?  I know 8.4 came out but I'm thinking I might just downgrade to 8,3,1 to see if that works like it does at home.  Any suggestions.
 
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net

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Posted by: John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

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RE: [Avid-L2] Re: HP DreamColor vs. Dell Premier Color monitors

 

220, 221, whatever it takes…

 

Dave Spraker

 

Principal, spraker.tv

Shared Storage Solutions  |  Consulting  |  Sports Audio

www.spraker.tv

 

Northwest Territory Manager, Western Rep Associates

Broadcast and AV Manufacturer's Representative

www.westernrep.com

 

New Address:

1100 SE 12th Ave., Suite #312

Portland, OR 97214

 

dave@spraker.tv
(503) 897-0250

 

From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Friday, January 8, 2016 3:10 PM
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com; bigfish@pacbell.net
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: HP DreamColor vs. Dell Premier Color monitors

 

 

Does it do hdri? High fps? 8k? Stereo? 

 

There's much more monitor enjoyment coming.

 

Mike


On 9 Jan 2016, at 2:09 AM, bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Terry you could buy one for me then you wouldn't have to worry about ROI.  You could write me off as a Post Dependant.  There must be some Tax break for that.  I would think my overall enjoyment using it would be all the ROI you need.  ;-)



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <tcurren@...> wrote :

We had one at the Editors' Lounge monitor shootout. It's an OLED HDR 4K monitor, and it is a bank breaker. Would I like one? Sure. Would I pay that much for a monitor that there will never be an ROI on? No.



---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

"Don't know if I missed this at NAB or if it came out later.  Anybody had a good look at one of these babies?

Found this:

Sony 30" PVM-X300 4K TRIMASTER Monitor"

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Dave Spraker" <avid@spraker.tv>
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this is the Avid-L2

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: HP DreamColor vs. Dell Premier Color monitors

 

Tax breaks you say? The rates I get these days I may as well file my entire turnover under charitable contributions.

Mike

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

__,_._,___

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: HP DreamColor vs. Dell Premier Color monitors

 

Does it do hdri? High fps? 8k? Stereo? 

There's much more monitor enjoyment coming.

Mike

On 9 Jan 2016, at 2:09 AM, bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

Terry you could buy one for me then you wouldn't have to worry about ROI.  You could write me off as a Post Dependant.  There must be some Tax break for that.  I would think my overall enjoyment using it would be all the ROI you need.  ;-)



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <tcurren@...> wrote :

We had one at the Editors' Lounge monitor shootout. It's an OLED HDR 4K monitor, and it is a bank breaker. Would I like one? Sure. Would I pay that much for a monitor that there will never be an ROI on? No.


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

"Don't know if I missed this at NAB or if it came out later.  Anybody had a good look at one of these babies?

Found this:

Sony 30" PVM-X300 4K TRIMASTER Monitor"

__._,_.___

Posted by: "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com>
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this is the Avid-L2

.

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