Ignoring the far right of the past as unspeakable allows just those views and policies to breath again.
It's important we don't forget and remind ourselves how evil rose before or we are doomed to allow it to rise, again.
Unless if course we are talking about those that deny it even happened.
Pat Horridge
From: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io> on behalf of Dave Hogan via groups.io <mactvman=yahoo.com@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 11:01:02 PM
To: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Ot, about the current madness, stay away if you don't like it.
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 11:01:02 PM
To: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Ot, about the current madness, stay away if you don't like it.
Free discourse being the norm here, there are certain boundaries I feel should not be crossed. Bringing up Hitler or Nazis is inappropriate, and reduces ones otherwise possible valid points to the ashes of a flame war.
Also, gonna leave this here:
Having said that…The overall takeaway I have is that the projections from the scientific community is that if we don't implement stay at home and testing, we ARE going to kill MORE people than if we did nothing. This virus is insidious two ways:
1) Higher death rate than existing cold/flue (various factors involved).
2) Method of transmission is more stealthy/aggressive than many other pathogens because of a) asymptomatic carriers, b) long incubation period with no symptoms, where you are contagious, and c) the general nature of how it's transmitted (e.g. Ebola required direct transmission, not through micro-droplets).
With that in mind, fighting a pandemic is in the wheelhouse of why we even need governments. I am NOT going to go into the political can of worms of the ways in which various governments have been good/bad at handling of the overall situation. There isn't enough bandwidth on the internet to settle that one.
In closing I wish for the best possible outcomes for everyone, health wise and financially. Certainly the planet is getting a break…LA has the best air quality of any major city in the world right now…got my windows open, enjoying the freshest air in my 42 years of living in southern California.
Dave Hogan,
Burbank, CA
On Apr 10, 2020, at 8:47 AM, Pat Horridge <pat@horridge.org.uk> wrote:
I didn't mis understand Bourke.
I hear and read similar warped justifications of what I consider to be primitive uncivilised views.
Often dressed as a objective step outside consideration of unpopular views but in fact just a mechanism to legitimise social acceptance of the unacceptable.Hitler and the far right rise was only possible using the same techniques.They set back our advancement in society and I won't agree to disagree.
In my view your views are abhorant.
Pat Horridge
From: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io> on behalf of bouke via groups.io <bouke=editb.nl@groups.io>
Sent: Friday, April 10, 2020 4:30:42 PM
To: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io>
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Ot, about the current madness, stay away if you don't like it.Sorry Pat,You totally misunderstood what I was saying, I'm not going to respond to this.
Let's agree to disagree.
Peace,
On 10 Apr 2020, at 17:18, Pat Horridge <pat@horridge.org.uk> wrote:
Some flaws here. Believe the earth is flat and you step away from rational thought.I can fly my drone to a few hundred metres and see the curve of the earth. I have flown around the world in a plane and seen its round. That's not an opinion that's fact.Flattening the curve does impact staying safe. I have relatives and neighbours who look to have a good chance of not dying because they will avoid this if people are sensible and considerate. As the number of infections drop it will eventually form a very small risk factor. Hopefully in a year or 2 we will have better treatment and vaccines.But more importantly flattening the curve helps the medical people cope and therefore more patients live (because they have ventilators) and more medical staff live because they have the time to take care of themselves.Not flattening the curve throws the vulnerable and medical staff under the bus.The virus will go away if its managed. That's already being proved. It can only exist outside a host for a limited time (days at most) When we start testing carriers we can reduce its spread and therefore its base to operate. This has been demonstrated with a number of similar out breaks. We didn't all get SARs.Bouke the rest of your post frankly puts a bad taste in my mouth. It's an economic choice to punish the sick and poor and reward the rich. Its un civilised to expel the old and vulnerable as too costly for society. It's a measure of society and civilisation that we can step beyond the wild west of the fastest draw wins all.Oddly we fought wars and lost millions of lives and untold wealth. For what? A principle.Maybe its time we looked at how Apple can sit on trillions of dollars while medical workers rob bins for food while fighting to save lives. That's situation is a choice we all accept and support. We don't have to.From: Avid-L2@groups.io <Avid-L2@groups.io> On Behalf Of bouke via groups.io
Sent: 10 April 2020 15:51
To: Avid-L2@groups.io
Subject: [Avid-L2] Ot, about the current madness, stay away if you don't like it.Ok, most of you did NOT ask for it, but anyways:First set some parameters:I'm a guy who believes that the government puts something in the water that makes us believe in conspiracy theories.There are NO facts, just science findings, that I call 'facts'There ARE opinions.Opinions are NOT subject for discussion. If you believe in God, or that the earths is flat, fine. There is no way to change that.So, let's bash or fight about facts, not opinions / believes / religions.Meaning, if I state 'Fact', it's open for discussion. If I state 'Opinion', it's mine (or yours) that is NOT open for discussion.(But you are free to ventilate it.)So, mark your comments as 'Fact' or 'Opinion'(Again, this looks strange, think about it. 'Earth is flat' was once a fact that has been debunked, but the Easter bunny is still very much alive.)Since this is an international group (granted, mostly US), I will try to refrain from cultural differences, not sure if that's always possible though.Since we are talking life and death:As my psychiatrist told me: 'Life is a sexual transmitted disease with a guaranteed deathly outcome.'I'm not afraid of death. Death is as logical as life.Now, to quote Hannibal driving a handtruck towards the balcony:'Here we go'First, very short, 'flatten the curve', and why 'Stay Safe' is bullshit in my book:'Flatten the curve is about decreasing the infection rate, so medical care can keep up with demand.It has NOTHING to do with 'staying safe', an estimated 60% of the world population WILL get infected anyways, just a few months (or years) later.The virus will NOT go away due to the restrictions.Now, I'm going to bash some 'science', but the statistics about the spreading rage / infection percentage are dead (no pun intended) accurate!Again, the regulations ONLY help in avoiding making harsh decisions, they will not do anything else. (Ok, perhaps buy some time to develop a cure / vaccine)Facts:People die more often then normally, but not really much more than two years ago during the last big flu pandemic.Governments (afaik around the globe) are now willing to spend 100 times more money to save a life year than a few months ago.(A 'life year' is relative, if you spend 1 million to cure a 100 year old, it's way more expensive than spending the same amount of money on a baby, since probability dictates that the baby has longer to live.)This is money that can't be spent another time, so it's very likely that in the end the lower / poorer parts of society have to pay the price, again.People listen a bit too well to their gouvernements, and 'strange' data is shared in the media. Not sure how it is over there, but over here the scientists advise the government, and the governments takes action pure on political / re-election motives, not on 'facts'.The vast majority of the money that is pumped into the economy now is going to big corporations, where those also are free to lay off workforces.(Seems normal in the US, not so much over here.)That is tax money, I pay taxes, you do, Apple does not.My opinions (split in bad / good things)The bad:Old people that are no longer allowed to see their loved ones rather live a bit shorter if that means that they can stay / die in the company of their loved ones.This is NOT their decision, politics dictate that they are not allowed to die from Covid, but dying from loneliness / lack of perspective is fine so it seems.People who loose or get a setback in their income due to this will suffer in a way that their lifespan (and quality of life) will be shortened way more than their risk of dying from this virus. (Simple example, healthy food is expensive, poverty leads to drugs / alcoholism.)There will be a huge increase in domestic violence / child abuse, and there will be a huge setback in education of children, especially in the lower part.Society is becoming a police state. Gatherings are forbidden, even if you do keep the 1.5 / 2 meters distance rules.Tracking apps suddenly seem 'normal'. Over here the governement watchdog barked about it, but in the same sentence it was mentioned that it 'could be' possible.(Hail Tor, Hail Kik)There is suddenly no room for different opinions (like mine).Why are people suddenly changed from well thinking individuals into slaves who do everything that is ordered whit out asking questions?The good:Society learns that there is no need to fly / travel as much.Due to the previous good point, this is good for the environment.I hope the discussion about self-chosen death gets a positive input so people have an option to die if they want to.Working from home will get way bigger. (Not all good, I'm doing that for the last 15 years, and the last few years alone, that's no fun at all!)But it will have a huge (positive) impact on society.The ugly (Tin foil head on):Fact:Studies to develop a vaccine for Corona (alike) viri were killed due to a US request as the US was afraid the research could lead to the development of a biological weapon.(This is actually true in my book.)(And no, I totally do not believe this is a man-made virus...)
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