The verdict is in. The mixer did some research and found that the desired approach was to only undip when there is Narration. This was suggested by Mark and Mike too.
I dug into the Network documentation which is convoluted by the fact that the actual network has it's "OWN" documentation but the parent network allowed me some "Discovery" in their documentation. I hope that maintains enough anonymity. ;-)
From the main document section pg. 16 section 3.8 Audio Dips:
"... Undipped Mix Minus Narration submixes do not change level in response to Program narration. They continue at the same level as if no narration was present. Undipped Music and Effects stems do not change level in response to program narration or to program dialogue. they continue at the same level as if neither narration nor dialogue were present..."
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :
I think my explanation has been more confusing than it should. The comments from Mark and Mike are what I would have expected to receive.
Here is the problem I see with the current mix minus. Because the music wasn't dipped under the sound bites etc..., sometimes the network refers to it as foreground dialogue, the mix minus narration undipped has blaring music during the sound bites etc... If the intent of the stem is to allow for an easy replacement of just narration this doesn't seem right. With this stem the sound bites that should be sound up are buried under the undipped music. It's all one track so you can't drop the music and bring up the sound bite. That is the problem I see with how it has been created.
I understand why it's nice to have undipped to not fight existing dips but with this mix stem the SOT will always be drowned out by the undipped music. The right way to do it would be to take the undipped music stem and combine it with the dialogue stem then you would have independent control of music and dialogue. As it is now if just the mix minus stem is used the SOT will be too low in the mix.
As Mark suggested it makes more sense to me that the music only be undipped during the narration but I am not working on the back end so I don't know what they actually use the mix minus for.
I have been told that on Netflix some of the foreign mixes don't sound good. This is a different network so I don't know what they really want out of the undipped mix minus. I'm going to talk with our mixer tonight because he told the supervisor he didn't see how this mix minus would be used.
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <speckydave@...> wrote :
John,
If someone needs the music stem for re-mixing later with new narration, then I really don't understand your confusion about the fact that it's completely 'undipped'. Maybe I just don't understand what you're actually describing, but it sounds to me like exactly what you'd need to create a new mix with new narration.
If the music stem was already ducked under the soundbites, it would just make it difficult for anyone to make further changes - what if the new narration timings meant you needed to fade the music up or down in places that clashed with fades already mixed in for the soundbites? Surely you can't expect someone to remix using stems that are already part-mixed?
Surely, the only reason to have the music stem ducked under the soundbites as you describe would be for a version with no narration at all? Or is that actually what you need, and I've totally misunderstood your need for new narration?
D.
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Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse spellung.
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Sent from my mobile phone - please excuse spellung.
I had responded to Mark offlist. What you both say makes perfect sense but that's not what I'm hearing on the stems. The music is undipped throughout even during sound bites SOT etc... What you guys are saying is what I would have thought it should be, hence my confusion.
As it is now the music is too loud during sound bites, obviously because it is undipped. The suggestion was made that even though the sound bites are buried by the music that might be desired because they would be placing translation dialogue over these areas so once the music is pulled down to the proper level that would only be a hint of the original english. I can sort of see that but it sure seems like a kludgey way to do it.
I think what you both have suggested is probably what is desired and that with subtitles they may not be using translations at all. I guess we need to ask for more clarification from the network as to the intended use of these stems.
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <edit6969@...> wrote :Yes I would agree with this. Have done it many times this way.HTH
Mike DrewOn 13 Jul 2018, at 12:08, Mark Spano cutandcover@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:This is obvious to me. Mix minus narration (undipped) means give us a mix without narration and without dips *where the narration is*. Don't undip everything. Just undip where the narration lives, so that if foreign market only needs to replace narration, they can use this and dip themselves in those spots.I would agree that that is the spirit of wanting it "Undipped" but given the undipped music is mixed with the english SOT in the mix minus it seems like a huge compromise on the back end. What they should want is music undipped and the english SOT as a separate stem. I'm thinking it's just that they don't care how crappy the mix ends up in the foreign version.
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <pale.edit@...> wrote :Just a guess here, but foreign translations can be very different in length, so if the dip is left in the stem, it's not easy to adjust.On our current series they request Mix Minus Narration (Undipped). I listened to the stem today and it seemed pointless given what I thought a mix minus track would be used for. In my mind a mix minus would have everything at mix levels just with Narration removed to facilitate retracking later. Given they want it undipped I assume that is not the intention of the stem for the network.The music is overpowering the English sound bites and SOT. I spoke with the Post Super and the mixer was confused as to what this would be useful for. The post super suggested that when they redub in foreign translation it keeps a bit of the English underneath the translation. I can see when they pull the music down to proper level the English in the Mix Minus would be even lower so I guess that makes some sense. It sure seems like it would be a very problematic compromised mix for the foreign translation.Anybody doing these kind of re purposing in foreign language that can shed some light on how this undipped mix minus track is ultimately used?John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@...
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