I see, then I'm not sure what their objection was about...
When you said 'The QC brain trust suggested that the 23.98 duration should equal the out time code in 24 frame code' , corroborated with the offer for fixing the slate, led me believe the slate was not reflecting the realtime duration of the program.
BG
From: johnrobmoore <bigfish@pacbell.net>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Friday, November 1, 2013 12:46 PM
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
I put the actual clock running time duration which is the same as the 30 drop frame duration. That is the real run time.
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@...> wrote:
>
> So what did you put on your 23.98 master tape slate for TRT?
>
> BG
> www.finale.tv
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: johnrobmoore <bigfish@...>
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 1:05 PM
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
>
>
>
> Â
> I realize the 24 frame time code is non drop. That was not a point of contention but my point was that at 23.976 the 24 frame out time code is not a representative of actual clock run time. So the drop frame duration is the actual run time and should be used as the actual duration in 30 and 24 frame code. This is what you have said in your reply
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@> wrote:
> >
> > QC is correct, 23.98 is always non-drop, which means a 1hr.program on your TC display is actually 0.1% longer in real time.ÂÂ
> > That's around 3sec and 18 frames longer.
> >
> > As a simple experiment, start both VTR and a stopwatch at TC=01:00:00:00, run the tape till TC=02:00:00:00, stop the watch and it will read 02:00:03:18
> >
> > Avid will tell you the same thing if you look at your sequence timecode and switcht between 24 and 30DF.
> >
> > The correct value, in terms of (real) time is the DF value, unfortunately available only at the 30FPS rate.ÂÂ
> >
> > BG
> > www.finale.tv
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: johnrobmoore <bigfish@>
> > To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:18 PM
> > Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> >
> >
> >
> > ÂÂ
> > Oh and to follow up with today's QC Corner additional "help" I was told that my 30 drop frame calculated duration is fine for the digibeta down converts that are 29.97 but wrong for the 23.98 master. The QC brain trust suggested that the 23.98 duration should equal the out time code in 24 frame code. Now just like non drop in 29.97 isn't an accurate running clock duration of a program neither is 24 frame non drop code and the 50 minute ish seamless show's duration is approx 3 seconds longer in duration than the 24 frame time code out. Interestingly enough the QC Monkey offered to fix my 24 frame duration to reflect the 24 frame time code out as the actual duration. This offer comes with a $25 charge to punch in a slate. So I'm being told the actual duration is wrong for 23.976 but okay for 29.97/59.94 down converts when in fact both masters run to the same clock time. Clearly there is confusion as to what non drop really is in the US.
> >
> > If the show was being sped up for 50I of course there would be the 4% time difference to the shortened side but to be told the 23.98 master and the 29.97 downconvert have different actual durations is somewhat comical or pathetic. I'm not sure witch, not the Halloween reference. Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I might be missing in this particular case? The only thing I can think of is if the tape were played at a true 24 that would make the 24 frame code a correct duration but it's a 23.98 master.
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So I've always used the 10% Safe Action and 20% Safe Title in my NTSC centric world but according to this the newer recommended practice is 93% safe action and 90 % safe title:
> > > http://tinyurl.com/m84yw4t
> > >
> > > In the PAL document it for R95 It shows 3.5% safe action and 5% safe title even for SD. Did PAL never use the 10% / 20% guide lines we did in the US?
> > >
> > > I realize I'm mixing numbers so when I say 10% in safe action that is the same as 90% of the picture. I always was told 10% in and 20% in so my brain thinks going in not the amount of actual picture area. You know for my NTSC this means the current RP is 93% and 90% but for the most part I've never seen that used for the same reasons my QC monkeys are using the old standard. And as always when I use the term "Monkey" I mean it with the most sincere respect to the species.
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > not sure if this helps, but 4:3 graphic(title) safe inside 1920x1080 is 1152 pixels, whereas 14:9 safe is 1344.
> > > > more stuff here: http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r095.pdf
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > BG
> > > > www.finale.tv
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: John Moore <bigfish@>
> > > > To: Avid L2 <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:56 PM
> > > > Subject: [Avid-L2] Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > John Moore
> > > > Barking Trout Productions
> > > > Studio City, CA
> > > > bigfish@
> > > >
> > > > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> > > > From: John Moore <bigfish@>
> > > > To: Avid L2 <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:47 PM
> > > > Subject: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So the delivery spec for a show I'm doing for discovery has a safe title grid with bug safe areas that basically maps out traditional safe title for 16x9 smpte safe action and safe title along with a 14:9 Protect. The instructions read use this template for all projects created in 1080 line High Definition and airing in SD 16x9 Letterbox. So I opt for the more conservative 14:9 safe to avoid hassles down the line. Now there is another distribution channel foreign whose delivery requirements include digibeta Pal and NTSC FHA 16x9 (14x9 protected-super & graphics 4x3 safe) Because all the graphics have no text and all my titles are 14:9 protected I figure I'm good to go for the added distribution channel.ÂÂÂ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well enter QC monkeyville where they tell us the titles are out of 4x3 and will be cut off. Basically I've found 14:9 protect is virtually 4x3 safe action when setting the Avid grid to 4x3 inside 16x9 so I'm confused as to why it would be cut off on an FHA 16x9 dub. I tell them that I realize it's more like 4x3 safe action but that's the specs for the show. Meanwhile they keep squawking about 4x3 safe title so we end up driving over to have a discussion about what part of FHA dub don't they get. The tune changed from things will be cut off to it might be a pixel out of safe action. I'm curious how others are approaching these situations. I figure if they ask for a FHA digibeta it's very unlikely that the show will air center cut but more likely letterbox. At least that's what the discovery channel bug clearance etc... suggests. Given the show is being delivered on HDCam masters
> my understanding is most broadcasting
> > distribution these days
> > > > is only done in HD and it's the cable and satellite head ends that use a dual receiver to do a downconvert on the fly for the SD tier needs.  Given this isn't it unlikely the digibeta would be used for transmission? I guess given the newer tolerances like IIRC PBS saying safe action and title are 3 and 5 percent in not 10 and 20 like the old days should I really be making everything 4x3 safe? Especially when the specs read as they do? When I mentioned that PBS's newer tolerance the QC person well traditional is still 20 and 10 percent so we decided to leave the titles as is for now and let the broadcaster complain. Just a fine day to play in the QC sandbox.
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > John Moore
> > > > Barking Trout Productions
> > > > Studio City, CA
> > > > bigfish@
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@...> wrote:
>
> So what did you put on your 23.98 master tape slate for TRT?
>
> BG
> www.finale.tv
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: johnrobmoore <bigfish@...>
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> Sent: Thursday, October 31, 2013 1:05 PM
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
>
>
>
> Â
> I realize the 24 frame time code is non drop. That was not a point of contention but my point was that at 23.976 the 24 frame out time code is not a representative of actual clock run time. So the drop frame duration is the actual run time and should be used as the actual duration in 30 and 24 frame code. This is what you have said in your reply
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@> wrote:
> >
> > QC is correct, 23.98 is always non-drop, which means a 1hr.program on your TC display is actually 0.1% longer in real time.ÂÂ
> > That's around 3sec and 18 frames longer.
> >
> > As a simple experiment, start both VTR and a stopwatch at TC=01:00:00:00, run the tape till TC=02:00:00:00, stop the watch and it will read 02:00:03:18
> >
> > Avid will tell you the same thing if you look at your sequence timecode and switcht between 24 and 30DF.
> >
> > The correct value, in terms of (real) time is the DF value, unfortunately available only at the 30FPS rate.ÂÂ
> >
> > BG
> > www.finale.tv
> >
> >
> >
> > ________________________________
> > From: johnrobmoore <bigfish@>
> > To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> > Sent: Wednesday, October 30, 2013 10:18 PM
> > Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> >
> >
> >
> > ÂÂ
> > Oh and to follow up with today's QC Corner additional "help" I was told that my 30 drop frame calculated duration is fine for the digibeta down converts that are 29.97 but wrong for the 23.98 master. The QC brain trust suggested that the 23.98 duration should equal the out time code in 24 frame code. Now just like non drop in 29.97 isn't an accurate running clock duration of a program neither is 24 frame non drop code and the 50 minute ish seamless show's duration is approx 3 seconds longer in duration than the 24 frame time code out. Interestingly enough the QC Monkey offered to fix my 24 frame duration to reflect the 24 frame time code out as the actual duration. This offer comes with a $25 charge to punch in a slate. So I'm being told the actual duration is wrong for 23.976 but okay for 29.97/59.94 down converts when in fact both masters run to the same clock time. Clearly there is confusion as to what non drop really is in the US.
> >
> > If the show was being sped up for 50I of course there would be the 4% time difference to the shortened side but to be told the 23.98 master and the 29.97 downconvert have different actual durations is somewhat comical or pathetic. I'm not sure witch, not the Halloween reference. Does anyone have a suggestion as to what I might be missing in this particular case? The only thing I can think of is if the tape were played at a true 24 that would make the 24 frame code a correct duration but it's a 23.98 master.
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "johnrobmoore" <bigfish@> wrote:
> > >
> > > So I've always used the 10% Safe Action and 20% Safe Title in my NTSC centric world but according to this the newer recommended practice is 93% safe action and 90 % safe title:
> > > http://tinyurl.com/m84yw4t
> > >
> > > In the PAL document it for R95 It shows 3.5% safe action and 5% safe title even for SD. Did PAL never use the 10% / 20% guide lines we did in the US?
> > >
> > > I realize I'm mixing numbers so when I say 10% in safe action that is the same as 90% of the picture. I always was told 10% in and 20% in so my brain thinks going in not the amount of actual picture area. You know for my NTSC this means the current RP is 93% and 90% but for the most part I've never seen that used for the same reasons my QC monkeys are using the old standard. And as always when I use the term "Monkey" I mean it with the most sincere respect to the species.
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Bogdan Grigorescu <bogdan_grigorescu@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > not sure if this helps, but 4:3 graphic(title) safe inside 1920x1080 is 1152 pixels, whereas 14:9 safe is 1344.
> > > > more stuff here: http://tech.ebu.ch/docs/r/r095.pdf
> > > >
> > > > cheers,
> > > > BG
> > > > www.finale.tv
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ________________________________
> > > > From: John Moore <bigfish@>
> > > > To: Avid L2 <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:56 PM
> > > > Subject: [Avid-L2] Fw: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > John Moore
> > > > Barking Trout Productions
> > > > Studio City, CA
> > > > bigfish@
> > > >
> > > > ----- Forwarded Message -----
> > > > From: John Moore <bigfish@>
> > > > To: Avid L2 <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> > > > Sent: Tuesday, October 29, 2013 6:47 PM
> > > > Subject: Today's Episode of QC Corner what does 14;9 protect really mean?
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > So the delivery spec for a show I'm doing for discovery has a safe title grid with bug safe areas that basically maps out traditional safe title for 16x9 smpte safe action and safe title along with a 14:9 Protect. The instructions read use this template for all projects created in 1080 line High Definition and airing in SD 16x9 Letterbox. So I opt for the more conservative 14:9 safe to avoid hassles down the line. Now there is another distribution channel foreign whose delivery requirements include digibeta Pal and NTSC FHA 16x9 (14x9 protected-super & graphics 4x3 safe) Because all the graphics have no text and all my titles are 14:9 protected I figure I'm good to go for the added distribution channel.ÂÂÂ
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Well enter QC monkeyville where they tell us the titles are out of 4x3 and will be cut off. Basically I've found 14:9 protect is virtually 4x3 safe action when setting the Avid grid to 4x3 inside 16x9 so I'm confused as to why it would be cut off on an FHA 16x9 dub. I tell them that I realize it's more like 4x3 safe action but that's the specs for the show. Meanwhile they keep squawking about 4x3 safe title so we end up driving over to have a discussion about what part of FHA dub don't they get. The tune changed from things will be cut off to it might be a pixel out of safe action. I'm curious how others are approaching these situations. I figure if they ask for a FHA digibeta it's very unlikely that the show will air center cut but more likely letterbox. At least that's what the discovery channel bug clearance etc... suggests. Given the show is being delivered on HDCam masters
> my understanding is most broadcasting
> > distribution these days
> > > > is only done in HD and it's the cable and satellite head ends that use a dual receiver to do a downconvert on the fly for the SD tier needs.  Given this isn't it unlikely the digibeta would be used for transmission? I guess given the newer tolerances like IIRC PBS saying safe action and title are 3 and 5 percent in not 10 and 20 like the old days should I really be making everything 4x3 safe? Especially when the specs read as they do? When I mentioned that PBS's newer tolerance the QC person well traditional is still 20 and 10 percent so we decided to leave the titles as is for now and let the broadcaster complain. Just a fine day to play in the QC sandbox.
> > > >
> > > > ÂÂÂ
> > > > John Moore
> > > > Barking Trout Productions
> > > > Studio City, CA
> > > > bigfish@
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
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