Since Tony didn't say it – have you looked at DS? I think you would find most of what you want there.
Sure, room for improvement, but isn't that every box?
tom@kineticpost.com
dir. of technology, sr. creative editor
Avid DS ACSR
kinetic post, inc.
248.799.0099 ph
248.799.0088 fx
734.717.4256 cell
From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris magid
Sent: 2011-05-18 12:51 AM
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
Oliver,
My desires for Symphony seem reasonable. It need not be the worlds greatest
"everything box". As I see it, there are limits to how deep of a compositor or
effects box an editor should be.
Symphony's features as currently described are quite nice. However, once you
depart from words on a website you discover what matters implementation and
visual/audible quality. Simply put, it is how you do the things you do.
While Symphony does need a few new additions, what really needs addressing are
problems and limitations of what already exists.
Warning, this isn't brief.
CORE IMAGE QUALITY is an emerging area of concern. Avid is being responsive to
questions I've asked in this area. Until details are delivered, outlining
limitations is speculative.
Online tools should protect image quality every step of the way. Make sure the
entire ingest, processing and output path is at least 10bit, whether linking to
files via AMA, traditional import or generating material elsewhere via Avid's 10
bit codecs.
It is critical that Symphony is extremely capable of handling 10bit or possibly
16bit material unmolested without truncation. This means files from cameras like
Alexa or graphics rendered via After Effects. Any 10bit codecs should be handled
as such. When bit depth reduction is needed BY USERS perhaps a more gentle
method such as dynamic rounding is appropriate.
NOISE REDUCTION should be an added image quality feature. Needs to be world
class and segment or contextual based. Maybe applied via tab in the color
corrector, maybe a tab in a new category of "image assistant" effects.
COLOR CORRECTION. This former cornerstone of Symphony needs work. I see no need
for a fully functioning Resolve, or Baselight within the editor. But, some of
the magic of Symphony is integrated workflow so progress is needed.
A better color corrector would do what Symphony currently does
only...umm...better. Pulling selections via luma ranges or secondaries should
isolate or target areas with a higher degree of precision. Greater flexibility
is also needed to refine edges or transitions. Smoke and others are good at
this.
Fixes would scale the interface or provide means of manipulating curves, levels
and hue wheels with great accuracy, speed and confidence. Interface tweaks may
be needed to match greater adjustment ranges or new features.
A node based tool is beyond reasonable expectations for a NLE module, but it
would be great if there was a straightforward way to add 1or 2 layers of
additional correction effects, allowing user defined graduated or circular
overlay filters and additional color correction passes you don't want summed
with previous adjustments before application.
A still store of comparison images could speed work along. Another secondary
would be nice. Basic garbage mattes and limited power windows could be within
the scope of revisions.
Final color correction results must look awesome. The feature set may be smaller
but visual output must be on par with Resolve.
REALTIME LUTs, assignable on the bin and clip level. Targeted at Alexa, HDCAM -
SR and uncompressed log material. Symbiosis with the color corrector may be
required.
ADVANCED DVE & EFFECTS. Oh boy. Simple online effects like PIPs or material with
alpha must animate and scale cleanly with crisp or controllable edges. Sharpness
shouldn't vary with vertical position. Soft edged effects like wipes must be
banding and halo free.
Animatte and Paint share these issues and have trouble producing halo free
vignettes. More control is needed when creating, moving and animating points.
The effects architecture needs functional evolution. Moving away from all
inclusive ez-bake effects like 3D Warp to separate alpha friendly components
which are mixed and matched may help. All Symphony effects should pass alpha to
each other and to 3rd party effects. This would make it easy to add soft drop
shadows, edge glows, motion blur and feathered edges. It would greatly extend
the usefulness of Spectra-matte keying and alpha graphics by combining them with
other effects. And hopefully a greater variety of native effects.
Symphony doesn't need a process tree but nesting needs to properly deal with
alpha and leave lower layers alone for flexibility.
Advanced keyframing still feels kludgey and would benefit from greater control
and a more delicate interface, as does managing stacks of multiple effects.
Entire effects stacks should be savable in one preset.
KEYING. Spectra-matte is a decent start. Needs greater control, especially of
edges. Being able to pass alpha to other effects rather than promoting to 3D
would allow for desperately needed post key color correction and lot of new
possibilities. POST KEY COLOR CORRECTION.
OVERSIZED IMAGED SUPPORT. Need a more functional, integrated, stable way to deal
with big stills. Current filter modes are great. But rotation and such is
wanted. Anyway to combine this with the regular modular effects architecture
would be spiffy.
IMPROVED NATIVE CG with special emphasis on crawls, rolls and lower thirds.
Friendly with the modular effects architecture for clean scaling or simple
animation.
PERFORMANCE. More real-time, higher quality real-time and accelerated rendering.
GPUs, add in cards, whatever it takes.
This could go on for a while but I think the idea is solid.
MORE OR LESS this looks like the same Symphony list from 2002. The difference is
in quality and flexibility. The features must produce world class, un-blemished
visual results and be able to deliver contemporary looks and choices. IMHO this
is where Symphony needs to be BEFORE it can be considered an upgraded elite
product. Until then, it is folly to consider it deserving of a premium.
If executed well enough some the same factors that once set Symphony apart could
do so again. Color Corrector, Advanced Keyer, Motion Tracking, 4:4:4 output,
maybe 3D online.
Not very inventive on my part. Really can't think of too many other practical
ideas.
Think that is Avid's pickle too.
Additional razzle-dazzle depends on how much of a premium Avid would like to
charge. Keep in mind they have a built in premium requiring Nitris DX hardware.
Stunning Symphony software could be worth 2x to 3x Composer's price tag.
Gets a little messier when you have to consider how to keep Composer
competitive. Certainly it would need some of the above to stay compatible and
some improvements in its own right. Some think it has its own premium problem
when compared to other blue-collar NLEs but I think it is worth it.
Whew. I do have some thoughts on your other comments but should save those for
later.
C.A Magid
RTVF
________________________________
From: oliverpetersvidy <oliverpeters@oliverpeters.com <mailto:oliverpeters%40oliverpeters.com> >
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Avid-L2%40yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Tue, May 17, 2011 8:24:50 AM
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
> chris magid wrote:
> of our OS X Smoke.
I'm curious. With all of your thoughts about Symphony, what do you think an Avid
"finishing" editor should look like? In some ways, this is what Avid tried to do
with DS and the MC-centric user base slapped them down for it. "MC-izing" the
interface simply didn't make either DS nor MC editors happy.
How does Smoke-OSX stack up in this scenario? Why not just dump your Symphonies
in favor of an all-Smoke environment?
Is there really a market for an enhanced Symphony outside of long-form
conforming? I mean, speaking strictly from my Florida-based point-of-view, I see
no market at all for this type of product in my neck of the woods. There is
certainly a need, but no one controlling the purse strings willing to spend more
than they currently do for FCP/MC Soft/CS.
- Oliver
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