GUS. That all sounds very good.
I do agree that it is odd for assist to be output oriented. I would think ingest or file ingest would be the best way to protect the value of a full blown DS. Guess if you have monitoring output, you have an output which could be hacked to tape, so folks could get around it anyway.
Avid does need to reconsider offering a software only variant of DS as a separate sellable product. Perhaps this could even use the AJA card to get the performance you speak but with no digital cut or method to get out to tape or master. That is a little harder in the file based world we are speeding towards.
As far as interoperability with Symphony. I had not give my previous post much thought. Think what I was getting at was an OLE type structure (object linking and embedding) where Symphony would actually launch DS much like it does Marquee now. There is an "avid ds" place holder effect that when applied in the Symphony time line automatically bounces that clip (or clips and layers in the parlance of vertical and horizontal nesting) to DS without having to create and import an AFE. The rendering would be handled by the "DS engine" but bounced back and managed by Symphony, again much like Marquee.
By managed I mean you would only have the one render, not a rendered quicktime or MXF and then an import. No double media. Symphony would be able to delete and file manage the render directly as it would any other pre-compute.
Viewable 601/709 realtime output when working would have be through the DX hardware to keep things right. UNLESS AVID WAS TO MOVE COMPOSER TO THE AJA HARDWARE.
It would take a lot of horsepower to run both applications simultaneous but perhaps we are just about there with 64 bit processors and memory structure. If so, some level of real time performance may be able to be preserved, as Symphony just "hosts" DS.
It could be possible to also have the OLE work across machines in a network so an outlying separately purchased DS Assist station could be tied into Symphony.
Avid could sort of dump, Avid FX and use DS or at least DS technology instead. Sell DS Assist as a stand alone product and "DS Effects" as a discounted option for Composer users. Symphony would perhaps get it as a no-cost feature and that would allow Avid to move the full color corrector down market, as the built in "DS Effects option" would protect the price premium for Symphony.
So perhaps this is two products DS Assist which works as it did and DS Effects which is the companion product to the Composer line. DS Effects being a nearly full subset of DS Assist with no separate video signal I/O, and only file level input with no ability to export master files like Quicktime. DS Effects would have to rely on Composer for media. There may be some other sensible limitations regarding sequence length or something. Some resolutions like 2K would be out of the question too.
DS Assist could function as DS Effects in situations where folks want the flexibility of having a full DS environment to support larger projects or support a companion big daddy DS.
Getting all this to work may be harder than actually fixing the problems with Symphony/Composer. HOWEVER, tying the fates and strengths of the products together does solve some interesting problems and questions.
Avid better get on the stick with a better color corrector and effects engine for Composer anyway they can. That day has come.
Chris Magid
RTVF
--- On Sun, 11/22/09, Gus <gustheeditor@mac.com> wrote:
> From: Gus <gustheeditor@mac.com>
> Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Mac Smoke Official
> To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> Date: Sunday, November 22, 2009, 4:02 PM
> "are you talking HD? What flavor?"
>
> Uncompressed 444 and 422.
>
> "That is really amazing."
>
> Yes. Yes it is.
>
> "One with input and only monitoring output. You would need
> a full DS
> to go out to tape. "
>
> You can go out to tape from the assist, but can not capture
> from
> tape. IMHO, this is backwards.
>
> " Having a 5 seat DS facility playing nicey nicey sharing
> projects and
> media would be one way to solve my problems."
>
> Yours and many others! You can share media, and
> projects, but you
> can't have 2 people in the same project at the same time
> (which blows).
>
> "now wouldn't it be interesting if I could have a software
> version of
> DS running on the same machine or network as Symphony and
> be able to
> maintain a "linked container effect" in my Symphony
> timeline which is
> dynamically tied to a DS timeline"
>
> You can kinda do that, in that you can have a DS assist
> running on the
> Symphony box and farm off effects without exporting
> media. Then
> render them out in DS and re-link clips.
>
> " Even nicer if the final render is managed via the
> Symphony..."
>
> You really don't want to do that, IMHO. DS supports
> many different
> bit depths and color spaces that are often necessary for
> proper
> rendering of some effects, not to mention the agonizing
> amount of time
> it would take to process.
>
> "... or if applicable real time performance could be
> maintained. "
>
> Therein lies the rub. DS just has so much horsepower
> that it would be
> all but impossible to preserve any of it in realtime
> in such a
> totally different software architecture like the one found
> in
> 'traditional' Avid products.
>
> -G
>
>
> On Nov 20, 2009, at 10:09 AM, chris magid wrote:
>
> > UMMM...are you talking HD? What flavor?
> > That is really amazing.
> > I am lucky...very lucky to get dual streams of DNX HD
> 220 out of our
> > Symphony to tape. A lot of variables there. Usually
> end up having to
> > render A LOT.
> > So with your information it seems that there is more
> justification
> > now for a DS Software only product. One with input and
> only
> > monitoring output. You would need a full DS to go out
> to tape. If
> > you were doing file based masters or export files for
> other edits
> > all realtime performance would disappear. That would
> still give the
> > full DS room to protect its price premium.
> > However we really digress here. Having a 5 seat DS
> facility playing
> > nicey nicey sharing projects and media would be one
> way to solve my
> > problems. Really what I am after is getting some of
> the warts out of
> > Symphony...including multi-stream performance.
> > As an aside...now wouldn't it be interesting if I
> could have a
> > software version of DS running on the same machine or
> network as
> > Symphony and be able to maintain a "linked container
> effect" in my
> > Symphony timeline which is dynamically tied to a DS
> timeline. Oh,
> > lets say a little like Avid FX works. Myself or
> another editor could
> > work difficult areas in DS and "publish" or
> auto-update my Symphony
> > timeline. Even nicer if the final render is managed
> via the Symphony
> > or if applicable real time performance could be
> maintained.
> > Hmmm. May be a lot to think about there. I'll get back
> to you.
> > Chris MagidRTVF
> > --- On Fri, 11/20/09, Gus <gustheeditor@mac.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > From: Gus <gustheeditor@mac.com>
> > Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Mac Smoke Official
> > To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
> > Date: Friday, November 20, 2009, 11:24 AM
> >
> >
> >
> > "DS has jumped to the AJA card/GPU which I suspect
> also has lower
> > performance. Therefore less of jump in performance
> from a DS assist
> > station to full blown DS. A gap too narrow to justify
> two products
> > with.
> >
> > Could DS users confirm my suspicions on Nitris vs AJA
> performance
> > (to tape or output)?"
> >
> > Certainly!
> >
> > Quite simply, the current, non-Nitris DS blows the
> Nitris hardware
> > away IMHO. The Nitris hardware had hardware support
> for 2 guaranteed
> > real-time streams of Uncompressed 422 video. The AJA
> card was needed
> > for 444 resolutions, and that was originally single
> stream only.
> >
> > Fast forward to today, and DS V10.1.2 on a z800 with a
> SAS array
> > will play many streams of uncompressed 444 with RT
> effects (a couple
> > of color corrections and a few DVE's simultaneously)
> off the AJA
> > card with no 'Avid' hardware. And that's ready to go
> to tape, not a
> > preview. Using the nVidia card DS will do the same
> amount of RT in
> > 2K. This capability extends down proportionally into
> SD and 422 HD
> > streams as well.
> >
> > As far as the Assist Station, it's real value is
> either farming off
> > effects for someone else to do on it, or using it as
> an ingest
> > station for file based conforms (like from native RED
> files). It is
> > also capable of outputting to tape or files. When not
> using the
> > assist for those purposes, it can be used for remote
> processing of
> > non-realtime effects, so the work never stops.
> >
> > My 2 cents.
> >
> > -Gus
> >
> > On Friday, November 20, 2009, at 09:03AM, "chris
> magid"
> > <chris_rtvf@yahoo. com> wrote:
> >
> > >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives
> at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Everything you MUST know about Color Correction in one
> book: http://tinyurl.com/ColorCorectionforvideo Get
> your copy todayYahoo! Groups Links
>
>
> Avid-L2-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com
>
>
>
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