All the answers make total sense in this thread. Mr. Patrick I think your suggestion is spot on. I am fortunate to have a full tilt edit bay with my scope to look at the LUTs critically before baking them into the transcodes and I think I've inherited LUTs like you speculate that are for making the on set display look like something.
Unfortunately in this real world scenario it was shot last week and we have to get it into Avid for grouping ASAP. Nobody on the production side conveyed any info regarding the LUTs. I will say the DIT gave us the data in an well organized form with very accurate descriptions for which LUT for which camera and scene. Given that the LUTs from the set generate very illegal levels, which can be corrected of course, and the standard Sony S3 to Rec 709 Avid applied looked better on my monitor every time I went with the standard LUT. If we were running newer versions of Avid I could have applied the LUTs later but we aren't so I had to commit.
I'm still curious where exactly the LUTs on a multi camera shoot get applied and how. On set grading was mentioned but I'm thinking this would either be done in the camera to effect what goes out the video tap to feed the production truck multi viewer or an interface box. I know I've read about filmlight or some companies box that you put in line to a monitor to add a display LUT. I would think something like that would be used on set for each camera feed to the multi-viewer. I don't know if there is a single "Program Monitor" that they can toggle sources on to balance the cameras like a traditional truck would have but I will have to ask around.
They also shot 4K which is part of the reason I've been transcoding 24/7 for 3 straight days. It seems like nobody on the production side really thinks about the ramifications of switching the camera to 4K mode for an HD delivery. I suppose they air on the side of caution and future proofing but now the money person is asking why this is taking so long. I wonderful world we live in.
Here's another question I just thought of. I'm doing the transcoding on a mid 2012 MacPro 12 core 2.66. In Avid ama linking and transcoding to DNX-175. The cores al 24 are running full tilt, which is awesome. I'm told by the Post Supervisor the DIT claimed he could transcode the media in one night. I assume he would use Resolve to do this. I'm pretty sure on my Avid 8.3.1 ama'd clips bring across more metadata than if transcoded in Resolve but I'm not sure. Also would a Resolve with a GTX-680 GPU transcode faster than the Avid 12 core that is maxing all 24 cores? I would think that with Avid slamming all 24 cores hard it must be comparable to the Resolve speed on a GTX-680 single card system. In fact I'd think the MacPro 24 virtual cores would be more computing power than the QTX-680 but that's just my gut which is often off.
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <elists@...> wrote :
Patrick inhofer
Colorist / Finisher / Owner, Fini.tv
On Wed, Jul 8, 2015 at 1:25 AM, Steve Hullfish Steve@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Obviously the DP creates the look with lighting. The LUT isn't really "camera trickery" though.
Think of it this way: Any good DP "back in the day" would also be very "look" conscious in their choice of a film stock. That choice would dictate color saturation, sensitivity towards certain colors and contrast and grain.That no longer exists with RAW and LOG. The only way you determine the "look" of the "film stock" is by the choice of a LUT. A LOG image NEEDS a LUT if it is to have any DP-dictated "look."With that said, many, many colorists that I've talked to dismiss the LUTs they're given, but they usually at least see what the LUT is trying to do to the image first. And if you're not the "creative force" behind the look (DP or real colorist) then you should definitely "obey the LUT."The DP or on-set colorist created that, hopefully in collaboration with the director, and that's what they're expecting to see.Not that I know anything about any of this stuff.SteveOn Jul 8, 2015, at 12:15 AM, Mark Spano cutandcover@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I am too, but my guess is that newer video viewing and on-set grading solutions are how this is done. Could be Scratch, Nucoda, LiveGrade, etc. - any ilve grading system, where the camera output feeds an intermediary which can apply a grade or LUT. These can be saved with the camera file name in its metadata, so they can be easily recalled later.Absolutely true. Hence the previous opinion of removing LUTs prior to color correct. Either way works, and it's then a matter of who's attending the grading and how much they remember from set. (i.e. are you going to get a question about 'hey this looks different from what we saw when we shot it', and if so, you have the on set LUT to apply to recover that look)"Perhaps I'm just more traditional in my approach but shouldn't "The Look" be created by the lighting and composition of the scene and not with camera trickery?"That is the traditional approach. This is a new one. Many tools for the toolkit, technology keeps adding them. Sometimes the DP and DIT collaborate on set to refine things.
" I would think anything you can do with a LUT on set can be repeated in post from the raw media."
On Tue, Jul 7, 2015 at 9:18 AM, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:Valid point, I guess if I saw what appeared like a look, which doesn't seem to apply to this show I would have contemplated the use of the specific LUTs over the generic. Also given this will be offlined and onlined in Avid 6.5.x I had to commit to something and I'd much prefer to start with something in the legal ball park and balance from there. Any look they want to achieve can be added once things are balanced.
Perhaps I'm just more traditional in my approach but shouldn't "The Look" be created by the lighting and composition of the scene and not with camera trickery? If you want something to look cold and blueish the lighting should accomplish this not the camera setup. I would think anything you can do with a LUT on set can be repeated in post from the raw media. IIRC Mr. Jay had responded to a similar question I had on how the real world application of LUTs usually happened and I believe he said the LUTs were used primarily as a guide but usually removed in color correction.
I'm curious how the LUTs are adjusted on set. Is there a remote video control like interface that tweaks the LUT remotely for a camera. This was a multi camera shoot so I would think any tweaking would be done in the production truck looking at a program monitor but I don't think there was any TD and switcher like a traditional show use to be shot. What little I've seen of the production truck/bus is more of a multi viewer set up for the director to see all cameras much like a quad split etc... on a sitcom stage.
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <cutandcover@...> wrote :
As far as I've seen, LUTs generated on set are LOOKS. Production will sometimes establish a look for certain setups, and these get passed along to post so that everything remains consistent. If you ignore these, you're ignoring the on-set look. Fine for you, but might not be come time for show review.They are not legal because legal is only necessary on final output. You can make anything look like anything up until then.
On Mon, Jul 6, 2015 at 7:17 PM, John Moore bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I've asked before about the use of LUT is the real world and if they are taken as gospel or just as a suggestion. The response before was they were used as a reference point and then usually taken off in post once in online/color correction. Today I have a myriad of media some F-55 4K and other XAVC- Intra 100 and I believe some go pro footage just for fun. I was given a bunch of luts for each camera and the section of the show like open, Exterior Act etc... As I've previously posted today Avid 8.3.1 automatically added the "YCbCr Sony SGamut3.Cine (SLog3 gamma)" Color Transformation. To be thorough I went ahead and imported all the LUTs I was given from production and for the most part they are useless. They all go well below 0 millivolts and over 700. They aren't too far from the Avid default LUT but in every case I look at the standard LUT Avid applied is more accurate and completely legal. I can see sometimes they added a bit of blue and lessened the Red but nothing major. I'm basically ignoring the field LUTs as they aren't helpful at all. I figure they were developed so things look okay on the set monitors but clearly they weren't looking at any kind of waveform.
Is this typical for those that get LUTS from the field? I haven't been in the field in a long time so I don't know much about the workflow of Video Village especially for these multicamera no production truck setups. Or I should say minimal production truck without a full tilt switcher etc... Are the LUTs generated in the Camera on the video tap to feed the control room monitors. I assume the Cameras are recording their raw data and the LUT is introduced just in the on set monitors but where does it come from? The DIT gives me these files for different cameras and different show scenes. Did he create them in a monitor interface box or pull them from the cameras? Curious how this works in the field. TIAJohn Moore
Barking Trout Productions
Studio City, CA
bigfish@...
Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
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