Just for clarification when I originally posted 29.97P I wasn't thinking right and I was referring to the preset I had tried first in Adobe Media Encoder. It dawned on me later and it was also pointed out in the thread that to add pulldown it would have to be going to an interlace frame. I was just in flurry mode being asked to fix 3 different things on three different projects at the same time. The file conversion was just one plate that was spinning.
As for the dreaded FCP cadence yes I see it all the time especially with stock footage. I think of it as 2:2:2:4 as in the fields or Psfs. I recall a thread a while back where someone stated that adding proper 2:3 pulldown was being rejected by European QC in the UK IIRC. The poster said they required 2:2:2:4 instead. I can't remember the exact reason behind it but it might have had something to do with the program needing to be converted to progressive and I'd imagine the split field were giving their encoding/conversion process issues. Bottom line seems to be there is no way to win all the time. I have also seen a lot of interlace 59.94 converted to 29.97P with many a blurry frame in some sort of cadence.
Just today I had a different show, episode 6 in a series where the digital delivery folks flagged improper cadence on two lower third graphics saying the cadence was wrong. The reality is the footage is random 2:3 pulldown generated by the DVCProHD deck on capture and the lwr 3rd banner graphic was created at 29.97P. So the wipe on banner animation is frame based over a 2:3 pulldown background shot. Now the graphic was created by the network folks who are now complaining about this after 5 previous episodes have been done the same way. Also they only flagged 2 lwr 3rds out of the whole show when in reality all the lower 3rds must exhibit this behavior. It makes me think whatever encoding software they are using to take a 59.94I show back to 23.976 is burping but not every time. Or maybe they just noticed it the two times. We clearly should have done a 23.976 workflow but production couldn't swing 23.976 pelco cameras so they went the other way. Just another cluster flop of less than informed decisions adding up to a mess. Last time I fought this battle it was mention here on the L2 that any of these streaming services that are airing older TV series, which I believe most are, are most definitely streaming content that has random from shot to shot cadences as that was a typical workflow then for episodics and other film based shows. So they should be okay with our random cadence too but Nooooooo. Oh well I learn more from failures than I do from success. Guess that means I'm learning a lot. To bad I'll probably forget it tomorrow. ;-)
---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <cutandcover@...> wrote :
On Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 8:37 PM, Shane Ross shanerosseditor@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:OY...sorry, but there is no good way to make 24p into 30p. Proper Pulldown can happen when you go 23.98p to 59.94i...frames spread out via the interlaced fields. You know that, you've done it in the past. And you say that you want to make a 59.94i file...but at the same time, you specifically say they want 29.97p. You can't do both. It's either interlaced, or progressive.If they want a 29.97p file, made from 23.98...there are only two options, as mentioned. Duplicating frames, or blending frames. And also, as stated, neither looks really good. BUT....you can also try to use FLUID MORPH to make this work better....I had to do this and I tell you, it was NOT fun. I meticulously went through the show and promoted every clip, and worked on a clip by clip bases. Where there wasn't a lot of movement...static shot, not arm waving, I did frame blending (fluid morph), and it looked fine. But if an arm went waving about, HUGE distortion would follow, so I'd have to leave that on duplicate frame. Driving shots...looking out the window...that had to be duplicate frames. Interviews, blended. THis took a couple days (including render time) for a 24 min show, but I got her done.And yes, their QC department did go "hey, there are some shots that look funny....duplicate frames. We can't have that!" And I would have to say, "sorry, but we shot 23.98, edited 23.98...under the original specs that called for a 23.98 master. This 29.97p master was asked for later, and there is no way to make 23.98 to 29.97 smooth. If you have a way to make this work smoothly, without repeated frames, and with smooth frame blending, I'd be more than happy to hear how you do this."I even had our VFX guy try what he could with After Effects. His method did the same thing as FLUID MORPH did...odd ghosting. So, we just did it the Avid way. And their QC department quietly relented.
From: "bigfish@... [Avid-L2]" <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 2:48 PM
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?That's interesting given you say 3:2 pulldown which in this day and age is wrong. Today people want 2:3 pulldown right? Perhaps it was just a typo in your post. What I found it that it seems to create 3:2 pulldown that is consistant. I'm basing this on ama linking back to the file in a 59.94I 1080 project and stepping through the fields.
The encode seemed to properly translate the time code from 24 to 30 as the show first frame starts exactly at 1:00:00:00. It is however Non Drop Code. For analyzing the cadence this seems optimal. The file starts a 00:59:00:00 which matches the 23.976 time code start of the source file. Slate hits exactly 00:59:40:00 and program start at 1:00:00:00.
Looking at video at program start 1:00:00:00 I get AAABBCCCDD cadence which is consistent but as you say it is 3:2 not 2:3 like todays normal pulldown in a telecine world. Am I correctly remembering that in my youth the normal pull down was 3:2. I don't recall why we switched to 2:3 and when that switch occurred.
Bottom line is the file is certainly playable and pulldown removable for the production company. When I come up from air I will ask a few more questions about this whole workflow thing
I am liking the Adobe Media Encoder except for the backwards pulldown. I wonder if choosing lower instead of upper filed order would effect the cadence. Logic seems to indicate it wouldn't but logic seems backwards here anyway. I just don't see any reason why the pulldown insertion is backward and or not adjustable.
---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <bogdan_grigorescu@...> wrote :IIRC, Premiere/MediaEncoder pulls down with the wrong cadence(B-frame dominant).Not sure if Adobe addressed it lately, but at the time(12-18mo. ago) it was enough reason to eliminate it as a possible tool for adding 3:2 pulldown.BG
From: "bigfish@... [Avid-L2]" <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thursday, November 5, 2015 12:49 PM
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Best method of converting a 23.976 file and or Avid timeline to 29.97P file?
Just want to add 2:3 pulldown to a 23.976 file to make a 59.94I. Now that you said that I recall in the past you suggestion a video mixdown in the 23.976 project cut into a new 59.94I timeline and letting Avid add pulldown that can be adjusted by promoting the motion effect if needed. It's coming back to me. I've got Adobe Media encoder cooking now so I will see how that goes.
IIRC when taking the 23.976 video mixdown over to the 59.94I project I had issues with the audio stems that were 23.976 when I went to export. I think I had to make audio mixdowns of each track while in the 59.94 project before I could export properly. That was back when I was still on 5.5.X so the direct audio output option wasn't available for export.
If the Adobe Media Encoder file works I'm done but I will have to check it for issues.
---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <cutandcover@...> wrote :specify what you want, and we can help you. And you can do it all in Media Composer.proper 2:3 pulldown = 29.97 interlacedduplicate frame pulldown = 29.97 progressiveOn Thu, Nov 5, 2015 at 2:19 PM, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:I do just want to add pull down. I'm baking a file to .mxf Avid DNX but the audio choices for tracks are several but they jump from 10 to 14. Am I missing a preset option. I really just want to take the .mov DNX 175X with 12 discrete channels of audio and make a dupe adding pulldown and keeping the 12 tracks of audio. I didn't see a preset for .mov. Again am I missing something. I've never used Adobe Media Encoder before so no suggestion is too simplistic for me.
Posted by: bigfish@pacbell.net
| Reply via web post | • | Reply to sender | • | Reply to group | • | Start a New Topic | • | Messages in this topic (13) |
No comments:
Post a Comment