Saturday, October 17, 2015

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

There is nothing wrong with having more tracks in Avid but I think you are oversimplifying the AAF round tripping on the ProTools Side. 

I don't run ProTools but I understand that the way I see our mixers work it isn't just the raw tracks bouncing back and forth.  I'm at the finishing stage so there is less creative editorial changes and more can we change the mix here etc...  The raw tracks that our ProTools mixer get from offline become a part of his timeline that he then reconforms into new tracks in groups of Dialogue 1, Dialogue 2 etc.. Efx 1 Efx 2 et... MusicMx 1 Music Mx 2 etc... Dialogue 1 Dialogue 2 etc....  Once that is done the a new timeline is created keeping the newly conformed tracks and dropping the original omf/aaf tracks.  The original tracks remain in the original "session" I believe the term is.  Now the reconformed tracks get bussed into submasters of Vo, Dialogue, Efx and Music.

The mix is a combination of levels and processing on the reconformed tracks and then a secondary layer of the submasters riding overall levels.  Then there is usually a final compression pass on the stereo mix stems and 5.1 tracks which are often folded down into the RtLt. 

I receive an aaf of stems that are in essence mixdowns of all the above processes.  I would highly doubt even with 64 tracks or more the aaf could send all the broken out tracks and submasters and bussing out to Avid in a form it could reliably playback.  Even in ProTools depending on the interface cards which determine the number of voices and DSPs there are times when they have to do in essence a mixdown of processor intensive effect like reverb while within ProTools just to get a proper play out.  Often times our mixers have to do several real time passes to make the stems.   So while you can most definitely pass aafs back and forth I don't think that would work in my world.  Perhaps the ProTools mixer could do a baby mix with just the raw tracks to better mimic an Avid timeline but that would certainly not be a preferred way to mix on the ProTools end.  That would be like telling me I had to use color correction effect instead of symphony's relational color corrector so someone on a lesser system could play along.  I know symphony color correction is backwards compatible except for secondaries but I would be none too happy to have that constraint put on how I work.



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <cutandcover@...> wrote :

A 5.1 track counts as 6 of your 24 total.

I hear Mike saying "take it to Pro Tools". Yes, Mike, but how can you take more than 24 tracks to Pro Tools? With Media Composer, you can't. I know, that's not really what you're saying. So let's tackle this then: I'm an editor, I made a timeline with 14 audio tracks. I pass this to my Pro Tools mixer via AAF. He starts working, adding tracks as he goes - now it's at around 28 tracks. I then need to post for approval/notes. Ideally, I would ask the mixer to send me back an AAF (28 tracks) that I can import and have our collaborative effort represented in the approval posting. Then I get notes, make changes, send it back to the mixer via AAF, and he continues right where he left off, with all tracks intact. This can't happen in current applications, and it needs to, because this type of workflow happens every day for us. Right now, instead of that easy back and forth, we're doing this: PT mixer bounces out QT of his mix and does the approval posting. We get notes, I address in edit, then give a new AAF (with the original unadulterated audio) to the mixer, and he spends time figuring out what's changed, and has to shift his audio clips around to match my new placement, and figuring out what I've added or taken away. It's wasted energy, big time. Having 64 audio tracks in edit would be a good start. Theoretically though, it should be much higher than that (to accommodate surround tracks and multichannel audio from shoots).


On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 7:54 PM, bigfish@... [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I haven't had occasion to deal with 5.1 Avid audio tracks.  Do they count as one track or 6 as far as active channels.  In ProTools they have a max limit of "voices" which are active tracks be it the main track or a submaster track etc... 

Can I have 24 Avid 5.1 tracks or it only 24 active tracks with a 5.1 track counting as 6 and a stereo track counting as 2 active tracks?



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <ph@...> wrote :

That's true, but on the other hand, when you start offering 7.1 monitoring to the editor, surely you end up with a lot of tracks very quickly.
I cut with a minimal amount of tracks, but as the edit draws to the end, I add more and more. I've never been limited by the 24 tracks though because I like to be able to see all the tracks at once, without having to scroll and/or make them so narrow that you can't even read their name.

But to be the devil's advocate, in this day and age, it's probably not too complex to allow MC to deal with 99trks and offer Murch and the likes what they want/need?

Pierre


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

Also Murch wanting more tracks of audio may have a lot to do with his sound editing background and not be representative of most editor's needs.  Of course it would be great to have more tracks available but is that really a huge issue for film editors in general.  I would think if it takes more than 24 tracks then it's time to send it to the sound department anyways. 


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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 11:24 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

A 5.1 track counts as 6 of your 24 total.

I hear Mike saying "take it to Pro Tools". Yes, Mike, but how can you take more than 24 tracks to Pro Tools? With Media Composer, you can't. I know, that's not really what you're saying. So let's tackle this then: I'm an editor, I made a timeline with 14 audio tracks. I pass this to my Pro Tools mixer via AAF. He starts working, adding tracks as he goes - now it's at around 28 tracks. I then need to post for approval/notes. Ideally, I would ask the mixer to send me back an AAF (28 tracks) that I can import and have our collaborative effort represented in the approval posting. Then I get notes, make changes, send it back to the mixer via AAF, and he continues right where he left off, with all tracks intact. This can't happen in current applications, and it needs to, because this type of workflow happens every day for us. Right now, instead of that easy back and forth, we're doing this: PT mixer bounces out QT of his mix and does the approval posting. We get notes, I address in edit, then give a new AAF (with the original unadulterated audio) to the mixer, and he spends time figuring out what's changed, and has to shift his audio clips around to match my new placement, and figuring out what I've added or taken away. It's wasted energy, big time. Having 64 audio tracks in edit would be a good start. Theoretically though, it should be much higher than that (to accommodate surround tracks and multichannel audio from shoots).


On Sat, Oct 17, 2015 at 7:54 PM, bigfish@pacbell.net [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
 

I haven't had occasion to deal with 5.1 Avid audio tracks.  Do they count as one track or 6 as far as active channels.  In ProTools they have a max limit of "voices" which are active tracks be it the main track or a submaster track etc... 

Can I have 24 Avid 5.1 tracks or it only 24 active tracks with a 5.1 track counting as 6 and a stereo track counting as 2 active tracks?



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <ph@...> wrote :

That's true, but on the other hand, when you start offering 7.1 monitoring to the editor, surely you end up with a lot of tracks very quickly.
I cut with a minimal amount of tracks, but as the edit draws to the end, I add more and more. I've never been limited by the 24 tracks though because I like to be able to see all the tracks at once, without having to scroll and/or make them so narrow that you can't even read their name.

But to be the devil's advocate, in this day and age, it's probably not too complex to allow MC to deal with 99trks and offer Murch and the likes what they want/need?

Pierre


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

Also Murch wanting more tracks of audio may have a lot to do with his sound editing background and not be representative of most editor's needs.  Of course it would be great to have more tracks available but is that really a huge issue for film editors in general.  I would think if it takes more than 24 tracks then it's time to send it to the sound department anyways. 


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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 10:32 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

I haven't had occasion to deal with 5.1 Avid audio tracks.  Do they count as one track or 6 as far as active channels.  In ProTools they have a max limit of "voices" which are active tracks be it the main track or a submaster track etc... 

Can I have 24 Avid 5.1 tracks or it only 24 active tracks with a 5.1 track counting as 6 and a stereo track counting as 2 active tracks?



---In avid-l2@yahoogroups.com, <ph@...> wrote :

That's true, but on the other hand, when you start offering 7.1 monitoring to the editor, surely you end up with a lot of tracks very quickly.
I cut with a minimal amount of tracks, but as the edit draws to the end, I add more and more. I've never been limited by the 24 tracks though because I like to be able to see all the tracks at once, without having to scroll and/or make them so narrow that you can't even read their name.

But to be the devil's advocate, in this day and age, it's probably not too complex to allow MC to deal with 99trks and offer Murch and the likes what they want/need?

Pierre


---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@...> wrote :

Also Murch wanting more tracks of audio may have a lot to do with his sound editing background and not be representative of most editor's needs.  Of course it would be great to have more tracks available but is that really a huge issue for film editors in general.  I would think if it takes more than 24 tracks then it's time to send it to the sound department anyways. 

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this is the Avid-L2

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 4:54 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

Here's a bit of old history. The original reason Murch sought a change is because he was working on "The Talented Mr. Ripley" in Italy and having Avid problems. I believe it was MediaShare related. Remember that beast? He was having trouble getting any help out of Avid (probably Avid Europe) and thought that if he - as someone who'd won the first Oscar for something cut on Media Composer - couldn't get help, that didn't bode well for any lesser known editors. At the urging of his assistant/associate editor, Sean Cullen, he started looking at FCP and that lead him to Digital Film Tree.


Remember that "Cold Mountain" was shot in Romania, I believe, and that's where the edit was started. Apple told me after the fact that they would have been incapable of supplying him on-site engineering support there, so he was on his own. So DFT provided some long-distance support.

Obviously it worked out well enough and all his other films to date have been cut on FCP "classic", with the exception of "Wolfman" and "Tomorrowland". That's because these were big studio pictures and the decision to cut on Avid had already been made or was logistically the appropriate choice.

Most of these recent films cut on FCP do not have the usual horde of assistants, like most Avid-based studio features. It's usually Murch and one assistant. That includes, in some cases, conforming master files to hand over for grading.

His most recent (and probably last) FCP-based project was "Particle Fever" - a lower budget documentary. There really was no post crew, as the director functioned as his assistant. A lot of the audio premix was done in FCP to streamline the process going into the final mix. Here are links to my blog posts where I've interviewed Murch numerous times. Note the timeline screen shots.

Particle Fever

 


https://digitalfilms.wordpress.com/2009/08/01/reliving-the-zoetrope-tradition-walter-murch-and-tetro/Hemingway & Gellhorn

  


Reliving the Zoetrope tradition - Walter Murch and Tetro

 

Youth Without Youth

 

Walter Murch and the Editing of Jarhead

 

- Oliver

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:56 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

Pierre,


Unless you are a member of the Opus dei, you should be carefull about calling yourself the devil's advocate in this day and age.
John Paul II abolished the position in 1983.

Rumor is that the then Advocatus diaboli, who refused to divulge the location of Lucifer, never came out of the Vatican's underground medieval interrogation chamber.




On 17-Oct-2015, at 4:28 AM, ph@cineaste.org [Avid-L2] wrote:

But to be the devil's advocate, in this day and age

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 5:31 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

How many tracks you get on a moviola or a KEM is a bad comparison. How many you get with a similarly priced modern NLE IS. Premiere and FCP7 and FCPX all win this battle. And you DO need this many tracks on a feature and in TV

Sent from my iPhone

On Oct 17, 2015, at 4:09 AM, 'Mikeparsons.tv' mikeparsons.tv@gmail.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

How many tracks did he get on the moviolas and kems?

Seems to me pretty obvious that if you're that into track laying you should take it to protools. You really don't want to be dragging that many tracks of audio around while making content decisions editorially. I see it but it's as silly as grading shots while you cut - a lot of your work will be wasted.

Mike

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 3:55 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Walter Murch and NLEs

 

That's true, but what you're saying is denying that technical evolution can go along with the evolution of the methods.


On bigger budget films, when there are several editors and sometimes a sound person involved from the first cut, I can see how it could be useful. Just because I don't need doesn't mean the others can't have it. Especially as technically there are no limitation.

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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 3:22 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Force an audio waveform redraw?

 

There is a Waveform Cache folder in each project folder now. Try deleting that?


With Best Wishes
Roger Shufflebottom
rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk
+44 7973 543660


On 16 Oct 2015, at 19:35, Dan McCabe danlist@bestmail.us [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Anyone have a tip to force a specific clip in the timeline to redraw its
audiowave? Currently it is displaying something completely inaccurate.

MC 8.4 Mac

Thx!


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Re: [Avid-L2] Please help! I can no longer Import once I updated to 8.4

 

Aha!


With Best Wishes
Roger Shufflebottom
rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk
+44 7973 543660


On 16 Oct 2015, at 18:17, Aimie Burns aimielistserve@gmail.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Hi Everyone, 


So it turns out to be an apple/ mac problem - it is a problem with my Mac admin account - we made a new one, and the problem went away. The Avid tech has sent me instructions on how to set my mac user settings back to default - which I will try next week, and see if I have any luck with that. Otherwise, I'll just edit under the other user. 
He's not sure why this problem occurred, and was very helpful, and worked for over an hour trying all sorts of different thing.

Aimie 
_________________
Aimie Burns
Peace Through Education



On Oct 15, 2015, at 5:48 AM, Roger Shufflebottom <rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk> wrote:

Please keep us informed. I still suspect that is a permissions issue with this version of MC. I usually run 8.4.1 under my Mac admin account. When testing just now, I logged in as a Standard user. When running MC, I encountered an error message when saving or quitting - the Site Settings could not be saved - 'Disk Access Denied'. This is not normal. Please pass this on to Avid.

Also, did you try my last suggestion - make a new Mac admin account, make a folder, put a file in it and see if you can import?


With Best Wishes
Roger Shufflebottom
rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk
+44 7973 543660


On 14 Oct 2015, at 18:15, Aimie Burns aimielistserve@gmail.com [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

Just wanted to update you - currently working with Avid Tech Support - they seem stumped too … almost an hour in to troubleshooting. Will let you know what they figure out. 

_________________
Aimie Burns
Peace Through Education



On Oct 8, 2015, at 2:40 AM, Roger Shufflebottom rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk [Avid-L2] <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com> wrote:

 

I've been thinking about this. I teach in a university with 16 installations of MC 8.4 on Macs in my classroom. Students have their own network accounts and we also have one generic local account if the network accounts can't be used for some reason. We have a large partition on the internal drive of the iMacs that students use for their work. I've seen two odd things in the last few days:

1) A student worked for 90 minutes, MC crashed and there was absolutely nothing in the Attic. I'd heard of this happening but never seen it.

2) Three students attempted to make new projects, using the 'External' button in folders on the second partition that had been made under a different Mac log-in. The projects were not created. Nothing. Blank space in the project list. I've never seen this before. By making a new folder on the non-boot partition under the current log-in, the projects were created correctly and work continued.

So, my thoughts are some weird permissions issue with 8.4. Can I suggest that you make a new Mac account with admin privileges, log in and see if your import works?

With Best Wishes
Roger Shufflebottom
rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk
+44 7973 543660







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Posted by: Roger Shufflebottom <rogershuff@yahoo.co.uk>
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Posted by Video Geek Squad at 2:15 AM 0 comments
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