On 14/08/2020 08:40, Pierre wrote:
On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 04:07 AM, Marcel B. wrote:
Run.Run with it or run away?
;-)
P.
Friday, August 14, 2020
Re: [Avid-L2] Editing team?
Away
Re: [Avid-L2] Editing team?
On Fri, Aug 14, 2020 at 04:07 AM, Marcel B. wrote:
;-)
P.
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Run.Run with it or run away?
;-)
P.
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Re: [Avid-L2] Editing team?
Run.
On 14/08/2020 00:53, Pierre wrote:
Hey from Paris,
This is not really a technical question, but it's related to Avid since it'll be the software we use. It's mainly an editing question. So far...
I've been approached to edit a 4 part documentary series and the producers asked me how work should be divided. The series is historical so it'll be a lot of sit down interviews and archive footage - good old official B&W newsreels but also recently discovered 8mm colour footage. Plus a narrator giving some context and all. Producers would like me to be some sort of "master editor" who would start earlier, then have other editors join in for the main editing, then switch back to just one editor once the network is happy and the rest of post can happen but is always prone to changes (between legal and archive issues, there is always tweaks to do before final delivery).
There is one director for the series, and he works hand in hand with a writer who is also a specialist on the subject. The director has a slightly different vision from his producers: he sees me as the sole editor, with two other editors working alongside, one going through the interviews (tons) and one going through the archive material (tons). He told me he likes to sit in the edit and be quite involved in the process.
I can see why he sees it this way, but this might not work with the schedule as there is not enough physical time to do the episodes one after the other. Also, the concept of showrunner is still quite alien to French producers, and directors are considered as "authors", not technicians.
On a previous job, an 8 part documentary series, I started earlier going through the footage, writing tons of notes and working on putting together a global structure with the director. Then two other editors came in and we worked on different episodes. This was a plan from the producers who wanted to save in post and not hire a showrunner nor a writer. It didn't work out great. One of the editors turned out to be a complete egomaniac, declared my notes were of no use to him and became very protective of "his" episodes, where the nature of the series called for more fluidity among ourselves with sequences possibly moving from an episode to another as filming continued. It became a daily struggle as this guy would lie about the footage he had (or didn't have) to the producers who took 6 months to realise he was a fraud on top of having an ego the size of the Alps. They also finally hired a writer to second the director but it was a bit late and there was not much chemistry left between the team members. I have no desire to ever repeat this setup...
Since I've been asked for my input, I started thinking about an ideal team - which can be different from the final plan as time and budget always get in the way of dreams... I'd be starting early, with two assistants with more of a junior editor profile. One will go through the interview selects and the other through archive footage. I'll start putting together the episodes as they are currently scripted - the director and the writer went through what they already shot and came up with episode drafts which include filmed footage as well as stuff they hope to get from the interviews they'll film in the fall. After a couple of months, we add two more seasoned editors to the team (make sure they are not selfishly egotistical and happy to work in a team). They'll work on the fat assemblies we would have created beforehand, episode by episode or at least block by block. I also work hands-on on one of the episodes but also as a team manager, and we make sure we have frequent reviews of where we are so we are always aware of each other's material.
At this stage I wonder if we need to add two or three editors after the first phase. Also, what do we do with the junior editors? They're also assistants in real life so could switch back to his role, but I have a vague feeling the producers might tell me they have in-house assistants. So I thought I'd run this by you guys here as I'm sure some (lots) of you have worked on different sorts of series and can share your experience as well as advice! Also it's always enlightening to see how other countries do it. There is definitely an "artisan" approach to the way things are done here in France, but sometimes (and more often than you'd think), it's borderline Home DIY...
Thanks for your help. And sorry for the loooooong post. Next questions will be about equipment as we'll start at a post house with shared storage but we all suspect that with Covid and the dreaded "second wave" we might have to change to home or remote work in the fall...
Pierre
Thursday, August 13, 2020
[Avid-L2] Editing team?
Hey from Paris,
This is not really a technical question, but it's related to Avid since it'll be the software we use. It's mainly an editing question. So far...
I've been approached to edit a 4 part documentary series and the producers asked me how work should be divided. The series is historical so it'll be a lot of sit down interviews and archive footage - good old official B&W newsreels but also recently discovered 8mm colour footage. Plus a narrator giving some context and all. Producers would like me to be some sort of "master editor" who would start earlier, then have other editors join in for the main editing, then switch back to just one editor once the network is happy and the rest of post can happen but is always prone to changes (between legal and archive issues, there is always tweaks to do before final delivery).
There is one director for the series, and he works hand in hand with a writer who is also a specialist on the subject. The director has a slightly different vision from his producers: he sees me as the sole editor, with two other editors working alongside, one going through the interviews (tons) and one going through the archive material (tons). He told me he likes to sit in the edit and be quite involved in the process.
I can see why he sees it this way, but this might not work with the schedule as there is not enough physical time to do the episodes one after the other. Also, the concept of showrunner is still quite alien to French producers, and directors are considered as "authors", not technicians.
On a previous job, an 8 part documentary series, I started earlier going through the footage, writing tons of notes and working on putting together a global structure with the director. Then two other editors came in and we worked on different episodes. This was a plan from the producers who wanted to save in post and not hire a showrunner nor a writer. It didn't work out great. One of the editors turned out to be a complete egomaniac, declared my notes were of no use to him and became very protective of "his" episodes, where the nature of the series called for more fluidity among ourselves with sequences possibly moving from an episode to another as filming continued. It became a daily struggle as this guy would lie about the footage he had (or didn't have) to the producers who took 6 months to realise he was a fraud on top of having an ego the size of the Alps. They also finally hired a writer to second the director but it was a bit late and there was not much chemistry left between the team members. I have no desire to ever repeat this setup...
Since I've been asked for my input, I started thinking about an ideal team - which can be different from the final plan as time and budget always get in the way of dreams... I'd be starting early, with two assistants with more of a junior editor profile. One will go through the interview selects and the other through archive footage. I'll start putting together the episodes as they are currently scripted - the director and the writer went through what they already shot and came up with episode drafts which include filmed footage as well as stuff they hope to get from the interviews they'll film in the fall. After a couple of months, we add two more seasoned editors to the team (make sure they are not selfishly egotistical and happy to work in a team). They'll work on the fat assemblies we would have created beforehand, episode by episode or at least block by block. I also work hands-on on one of the episodes but also as a team manager, and we make sure we have frequent reviews of where we are so we are always aware of each other's material.
At this stage I wonder if we need to add two or three editors after the first phase. Also, what do we do with the junior editors? They're also assistants in real life so could switch back to his role, but I have a vague feeling the producers might tell me they have in-house assistants. So I thought I'd run this by you guys here as I'm sure some (lots) of you have worked on different sorts of series and can share your experience as well as advice! Also it's always enlightening to see how other countries do it. There is definitely an "artisan" approach to the way things are done here in France, but sometimes (and more often than you'd think), it's borderline Home DIY...
Thanks for your help. And sorry for the loooooong post. Next questions will be about equipment as we'll start at a post house with shared storage but we all suspect that with Covid and the dreaded "second wave" we might have to change to home or remote work in the fall...
Pierre
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This is not really a technical question, but it's related to Avid since it'll be the software we use. It's mainly an editing question. So far...
I've been approached to edit a 4 part documentary series and the producers asked me how work should be divided. The series is historical so it'll be a lot of sit down interviews and archive footage - good old official B&W newsreels but also recently discovered 8mm colour footage. Plus a narrator giving some context and all. Producers would like me to be some sort of "master editor" who would start earlier, then have other editors join in for the main editing, then switch back to just one editor once the network is happy and the rest of post can happen but is always prone to changes (between legal and archive issues, there is always tweaks to do before final delivery).
There is one director for the series, and he works hand in hand with a writer who is also a specialist on the subject. The director has a slightly different vision from his producers: he sees me as the sole editor, with two other editors working alongside, one going through the interviews (tons) and one going through the archive material (tons). He told me he likes to sit in the edit and be quite involved in the process.
I can see why he sees it this way, but this might not work with the schedule as there is not enough physical time to do the episodes one after the other. Also, the concept of showrunner is still quite alien to French producers, and directors are considered as "authors", not technicians.
On a previous job, an 8 part documentary series, I started earlier going through the footage, writing tons of notes and working on putting together a global structure with the director. Then two other editors came in and we worked on different episodes. This was a plan from the producers who wanted to save in post and not hire a showrunner nor a writer. It didn't work out great. One of the editors turned out to be a complete egomaniac, declared my notes were of no use to him and became very protective of "his" episodes, where the nature of the series called for more fluidity among ourselves with sequences possibly moving from an episode to another as filming continued. It became a daily struggle as this guy would lie about the footage he had (or didn't have) to the producers who took 6 months to realise he was a fraud on top of having an ego the size of the Alps. They also finally hired a writer to second the director but it was a bit late and there was not much chemistry left between the team members. I have no desire to ever repeat this setup...
Since I've been asked for my input, I started thinking about an ideal team - which can be different from the final plan as time and budget always get in the way of dreams... I'd be starting early, with two assistants with more of a junior editor profile. One will go through the interview selects and the other through archive footage. I'll start putting together the episodes as they are currently scripted - the director and the writer went through what they already shot and came up with episode drafts which include filmed footage as well as stuff they hope to get from the interviews they'll film in the fall. After a couple of months, we add two more seasoned editors to the team (make sure they are not selfishly egotistical and happy to work in a team). They'll work on the fat assemblies we would have created beforehand, episode by episode or at least block by block. I also work hands-on on one of the episodes but also as a team manager, and we make sure we have frequent reviews of where we are so we are always aware of each other's material.
At this stage I wonder if we need to add two or three editors after the first phase. Also, what do we do with the junior editors? They're also assistants in real life so could switch back to his role, but I have a vague feeling the producers might tell me they have in-house assistants. So I thought I'd run this by you guys here as I'm sure some (lots) of you have worked on different sorts of series and can share your experience as well as advice! Also it's always enlightening to see how other countries do it. There is definitely an "artisan" approach to the way things are done here in France, but sometimes (and more often than you'd think), it's borderline Home DIY...
Thanks for your help. And sorry for the loooooong post. Next questions will be about equipment as we'll start at a post house with shared storage but we all suspect that with Covid and the dreaded "second wave" we might have to change to home or remote work in the fall...
Pierre
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Re: [Avid-L2] Color Science etc... Log vs. ACES?
So the ACES transform is only put on the Video Tap. I would assume this feeds a monitor that is ACES compatible. Is it correct that ACES is fixed and not like a monitor LUT the DP and DIT tweak on set?
It sounds like the actual is just S-Gamut3/S-Log-3 which I could put a standard Slog3 to Rec 709 LUT on and basically see what they intended although there may be a subtle difference. Often with non ACES workflow I get a LUT from the field for Panny Varicm 35 Vlog. When I compare the standard LUT Vlog to Rec 709 to the LUT from the field they are usually very close. I would think ACES would behave similarly.
Is there a specific difference in a LUT vs. a transform?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 03:19 PM, David Baud wrote:
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It sounds like the actual is just S-Gamut3/S-Log-3 which I could put a standard Slog3 to Rec 709 LUT on and basically see what they intended although there may be a subtle difference. Often with non ACES workflow I get a LUT from the field for Panny Varicm 35 Vlog. When I compare the standard LUT Vlog to Rec 709 to the LUT from the field they are usually very close. I would think ACES would behave similarly.
Is there a specific difference in a LUT vs. a transform?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2020 at 03:19 PM, David Baud wrote:
Last time I checked, DP will shot using Sony Log format (wider color space) either S-Gamut3/S-Log-3 or S-Gamut2/S-Log-2 and monitor using ACES LUT to whatever their monitor is set to (Rec.709 or P3 usually). I don’t think Sony cameras have a specific settings for ACES, other than accepting ACES LUT for monitoring your output signal. To answer your question, the camera settings are the same than shooting log, but in order to get the look the DP is looking for, they want to use some ACES LUT corresponding to the established look.In post, to work in ACES, you want to use the Sony IDT when processing the corresponding footage.For a "true ACES" workflow in DaVinci Resolve, you want to switch Color management to ACES (ACEScct, latest version 1.03) and use the Sony IDT for your footage in the Media page.Hope this help,david at kosmos-productions.comDavid BaudColorist & Finishing Editor
On Aug 12, 2020, at 3:37 PM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:
I may have a project that will be shot on Sony F55s and I'm told production is using an ACES workflow. I've played with ACES in class but it was very brief. How does ACES differ from shooting Log in practice? I haven't had a chance to contact any of the production folks to find out exactly what ACES mode they will be using. Does the F55 shoot in typical SLog3 but store information in ACES or is it just set to record ACES of a certain type?In Resolve I know there a are project settings that get Resolve to work in ACES color science as opposed to the typical Resolve color science. I have no media to play with yet so just starting to experiment and learn what I can.John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
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Wednesday, August 12, 2020
Re: [Avid-L2] Color Science etc... Log vs. ACES?
Last time I checked, DP will shot using Sony Log format (wider color space) either S-Gamut3/S-Log-3 or S-Gamut2/S-Log-2 and monitor using ACES LUT to whatever their monitor is set to (Rec.709 or P3 usually). I don't think Sony cameras have a specific settings for ACES, other than accepting ACES LUT for monitoring your output signal. To answer your question, the camera settings are the same than shooting log, but in order to get the look the DP is looking for, they want to use some ACES LUT corresponding to the established look.
david at kosmos-productions.com
In post, to work in ACES, you want to use the Sony IDT when processing the corresponding footage.
For a "true ACES" workflow in DaVinci Resolve, you want to switch Color management to ACES (ACEScct, latest version 1.03) and use the Sony IDT for your footage in the Media page.
Hope this help,
David Baud
Colorist & Finishing Editor
On Aug 12, 2020, at 3:37 PM, John Moore <bigfish@pacbell.net> wrote:I may have a project that will be shot on Sony F55s and I'm told production is using an ACES workflow. I've played with ACES in class but it was very brief. How does ACES differ from shooting Log in practice? I haven't had a chance to contact any of the production folks to find out exactly what ACES mode they will be using. Does the F55 shoot in typical SLog3 but store information in ACES or is it just set to record ACES of a certain type?In Resolve I know there a are project settings that get Resolve to work in ACES color science as opposed to the typical Resolve color science. I have no media to play with yet so just starting to experiment and learn what I can.John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
[Avid-L2] Color Science etc... Log vs. ACES?
I may have a project that will be shot on Sony F55s and I'm told production is using an ACES workflow. I've played with ACES in class but it was very brief. How does ACES differ from shooting Log in practice? I haven't had a chance to contact any of the production folks to find out exactly what ACES mode they will be using. Does the F55 shoot in typical SLog3 but store information in ACES or is it just set to record ACES of a certain type?
In Resolve I know there a are project settings that get Resolve to work in ACES color science as opposed to the typical Resolve color science. I have no media to play with yet so just starting to experiment and learn what I can.
John Moore Barking Trout Productions Studio City, CA bigfish@pacbell.net
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