Monday, December 20, 2010

[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

I think the point that's being missed is that when Murch talks about seeing a shot in wind, he's merely talking about being REMINDED of a shot that might have been missed otherwise.

His approach is to view all dailies in their entirety and take notes. This isn't a substitute for that and in fact, he's developed a whole process using FileMaker Pro for tracking info, impressions and comments for each and every shot and take. The view/shuttle approach is merely a way of spotting shots that you might have put out of your mind.

Secondly, because you see a number of shots quickly juxtaposed in ways that you wouldn't in normal play, you get a different appreciation for some shots.

- Oliver

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

Find useful articles and helpful tips on living with Fibromyalgia. Visit the Fibromyalgia Zone today!

Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 3:26 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

I am also of the "fast scrolling through footage" school. Most, if not all of us, don't have the luxury of time to ponder our edits the way Murch does... as well as a team of great Assistant Editors to track things, hang stills on the wall, as he does.

But another point Murch makes, is that "You only have only one first impression of a shot." The way a shot or performance affects you the very first time you see it is not unlike the way the audience will see it. That's why he takes copious notes the first time through of his impressions.

...but as I said, we all don't have the luxury of time... so fast-shuttling makes sense on several levels.

George

 

Maybe the disconnect here is that Mr. Murch is NOT saying that that's the ONLY way you view footage, but that it is an ADDITIONAL way to view footage.

If you've read any of his books, you know that he is INTIMATELY familiar with EVERY SINGLE SHOT that he has access to. He keeps meticulous notes and logs footage EXTREMELY thoroughly.

The point is that it is very hard to keep every moment of an entire production locked in your head. The more footage you have, the more footage you forget. Just because something is well logged only means that you can access it if you can remember to ASK your NLE for that shot. But editing is CONTEXTUAL. So, when you are logging, you may not have the CONTEXT to know that some odd bit of movement or outtake or mistake, or maybe a brilliant little moment from a scene that later gets cut, will work for something totally different in your sequence.

Shuttling helps remind your brain - "Oh yeah! I remember that. That would work here!" Sometimes well logged footage ends up in the wrong bin. I've had that happen. I'm sure others have as well. That shot could be "lost" to you. I've had stuff imported incorrectly from file-based media and gets named incorrectly or associated with the wrong scene. Maybe a shot accidentally gets deleted or something in the course of the edit.

But if you've run all this stuff together and occasionally scroll through it, it re-energizes you to the possibilities. It spurs "kizmet" or whatever you want to call it. A chance encounter with a shot that you wouldn't have thought of in its context of bins and logging. A little bit of chance in an edit has saved me more times than I can remember.

Your point of watching each take carefully is a great one... unfortunately, for it to work like the above, you'd have to review every shot in your footage every time you make an edit. That would get a little time consuming.

Not buying the wisdom of Murch and others with more experience and chops than you only hurts one person, and it ain't me.

Steve Hullfish

contributor: www.provideocoalition.com

author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"

On Dec 20, 2010, at 3:00 PM, switthaus wrote:

> I think by actually watching each scene, you can also come up with good or better ideas from the footage that the client may not have known they even had. Far better than watching a tape shuttle by. Sorry Mr. Murch, I am not buying. :-)

>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:22 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

BTW, I am NOT saying that *I* have more experience and chops, just that there are a lot of very experienced Oscar winning, Emmy winning, brilliant editors that think this is a smart thing. When multiple people tell me something, I have to at least consider that they may be right.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com

On Dec 20, 2010, at 3:12 PM, Steve Hullfish wrote:
> Not buying the wisdom of Murch and others with more experience and chops than you only hurts one person, and it ain't me.

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:22 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

Okay, look. Mr. Murch isn't saying he ONLY scans through 10-minute rolls seeking inspiration. I'm sure he also has a focussed session with complete takes. All that's being said here is that the NLE way of working (mostly) eliminated a happy thing that happened when your dailies were assembled into longer lab rolls that had to be put on the Steenbeck and shuttled through in order to either get to a shot or to rewind before putting it back in the box. This act of high-speed shuttling gave you a fast reminder of what else had been shot -- which is NOT like the way we usually deal with shots in the NLE world, in which you have individual master clips and subclips.

Murch is saying that it was within this mechanical need to spool through longer lab rolls that he often would be reminded of, or would find unexpected inspiration in, the cascade of images hurtling across the viewer. This was organic to the workprint-on-the-KEM world, not so much in the NLE world.


On Dec 20, 2010, at 1:00 PM, switthaus wrote:

> I guess my point is how do you get good feel for a take/shot by shuttling by versus watching it and making notes on each one (in real time versus shuttle speed)? Again, I work in the short form world so I am usually only dealing with 1-2 hours of footage on a normal spot.
>
> I think by actually watching each scene, you can also come up with good or better ideas from the footage that the client may not have known they even had. Far better than watching a tape shuttle by. Sorry Mr. Murch, I am not buying. :-)
>
> sw
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
> >
> >
> > I'm guessing you haven't read Murch's book. His point was that shuttling gave him time to take a mental break which allowed other ideas to percolate, and also allowed him to be reviewing other shots flying by which often triggered entirely different ideas that could end up being better.
> >
> > I personally used to experience this cutting shows on a linear edit system. Often I'd see a shot flying by that was even better than the shot I was heading to use.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
> > >
> > > huh? Shuttling by? Not sure thats a good way (for me) to choose good takes or parts of takes of a scene. Even when loading dailies from tape, I would capture the entire lab roll, then go back and subclip each scene, take, etc. Maybe thats just me, but...
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > <<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
> > > >
> > > > You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
> > > >
> > >
> >
>
>

David Dodson
davidadodson@sbcglobal.net

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------


Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
Avid-L2-digest@yahoogroups.com
Avid-L2-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Avid-L2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:17 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

Maybe the disconnect here is that Mr. Murch is NOT saying that that's the ONLY way you view footage, but that it is an ADDITIONAL way to view footage.

If you've read any of his books, you know that he is INTIMATELY familiar with EVERY SINGLE SHOT that he has access to. He keeps meticulous notes and logs footage EXTREMELY thoroughly.

The point is that it is very hard to keep every moment of an entire production locked in your head. The more footage you have, the more footage you forget. Just because something is well logged only means that you can access it if you can remember to ASK your NLE for that shot. But editing is CONTEXTUAL. So, when you are logging, you may not have the CONTEXT to know that some odd bit of movement or outtake or mistake, or maybe a brilliant little moment from a scene that later gets cut, will work for something totally different in your sequence.

Shuttling helps remind your brain - "Oh yeah! I remember that. That would work here!" Sometimes well logged footage ends up in the wrong bin. I've had that happen. I'm sure others have as well. That shot could be "lost" to you. I've had stuff imported incorrectly from file-based media and gets named incorrectly or associated with the wrong scene. Maybe a shot accidentally gets deleted or something in the course of the edit.

But if you've run all this stuff together and occasionally scroll through it, it re-energizes you to the possibilities. It spurs "kizmet" or whatever you want to call it. A chance encounter with a shot that you wouldn't have thought of in its context of bins and logging. A little bit of chance in an edit has saved me more times than I can remember.

Your point of watching each take carefully is a great one... unfortunately, for it to work like the above, you'd have to review every shot in your footage every time you make an edit. That would get a little time consuming.

Not buying the wisdom of Murch and others with more experience and chops than you only hurts one person, and it ain't me.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"

On Dec 20, 2010, at 3:00 PM, switthaus wrote:

> I think by actually watching each scene, you can also come up with good or better ideas from the footage that the client may not have known they even had. Far better than watching a tape shuttle by. Sorry Mr. Murch, I am not buying. :-)
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

MARKETPLACE

Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests.

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:12 PM 0 comments

[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

I guess my point is how do you get good feel for a take/shot by shuttling by versus watching it and making notes on each one (in real time versus shuttle speed)? Again, I work in the short form world so I am usually only dealing with 1-2 hours of footage on a normal spot.

I think by actually watching each scene, you can also come up with good or better ideas from the footage that the client may not have known they even had. Far better than watching a tape shuttle by. Sorry Mr. Murch, I am not buying. :-)

sw

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
>
> I'm guessing you haven't read Murch's book. His point was that shuttling gave him time to take a mental break which allowed other ideas to percolate, and also allowed him to be reviewing other shots flying by which often triggered entirely different ideas that could end up being better.
>
> I personally used to experience this cutting shows on a linear edit system. Often I'd see a shot flying by that was even better than the shot I was heading to use.
>
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
> >
> > huh? Shuttling by? Not sure thats a good way (for me) to choose good takes or parts of takes of a scene. Even when loading dailies from tape, I would capture the entire lab roll, then go back and subclip each scene, take, etc. Maybe thats just me, but...
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > > <<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
> > >
> > > You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
> > >
> >
>

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center.

Be a homeroom hero! Help Yahoo! donate up to $350K to classrooms!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 1:00 PM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: OT: Oki Dog Update just in time for the holiday break

 

As always, good to hear from you, Chris. I'd rather have a list of feature
requests repeat on me than an Oki dog. In a world of finite resources, we
make difficult decisions at every release. Your feedback on those decisions
is crucial.

-F

Frank Capria
(508) 709 9212
www.capria.tv

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 11:25 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

On several occations I've been given the opportunity of being my own director (or my own editor, whichever way works), which is always an enlightening experience. My editor is very rarely satisfied with the work of his director - and the director-side of me has learnt the value of preproduction.

For some of the things we do, we get the opportunity of planning almost everything before a shoot, right down to the edit. I'll edit an animatic, sometimes with only pencil drawings, and when a shot is missing or an angle is wrong I'll draw it and edit it in. When we get to shooting, I know what it will take for every shot to work within the edit, and I can focus on those things.

Back on topic: This thread has moved on to a general complaining about working file-based - but let's remember there's also a lot of benefits, I'll add just one:

Dumping in a bunch of files with arbitrary names gives me a back door into the fottage - one thing is it allows me to watch the very last take first, which I've found can sometimes make it a lot easier to look for earier better takes.

K
_______________
Knut A. Helgeland
mailto:Knut@Toxic.no
_______________

Den 20. des. 2010 kl. 15:05 skrev "Steve Hullfish" <steve4lists@veralith.com>:

> This is actually another example of something from the very first Avid Master Editor's workshop: Paula Heredia was there as a documentary editor. She was talking about cutting a recent doc and described all of these shots she felt she needed for the cut. One of the workshop participants asked, "How did you get these perfect shots?" Her reply, "I sent the director back out for them!"
>
> I loved that. Of course, rarely does the editor get to demand that the director go back out and grab stuff that's needed to better tell the story, but it showed the importance and power of the editor to know what was needed to properly tell the story.
>
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 11:26 PM, John Hollands wrote:
>> Great Directors want Great Editors to say things to them like "I'd
>> really like a shot of the finger on the trigger here" or "we definitely
>> need a wide shot to see him escape"
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>
> ------------------------------------
>
>
> Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

MARKETPLACE

Get great advice about dogs and cats. Visit the Dog & Cat Answers Center.

Hobbies & Activities Zone: Find others who share your passions! Explore new interests.

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 11:17 AM 0 comments

[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

Yes she works very hard on these projects. Of course the down side is when at home she sends me out for extra pick up; the trash, grocery store and the dog yard come to mind. It's hard to enjoy the tube when Cecil B. Demille is hounding you to take out the garbage. ;-)

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:
>

>

>
> It's cool that your wife is given the power to help determine the needed shots for her projects.
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
> co-author: "Color Correction for Video: revised edition," "Avid Xpress Pro Editing Workshop" and "Avid XpressDV On the Spot"
> presenter: Class On Demand's "Complete Training for Avid Media Composer" AND "Complete Training for Apple Color"
> www.classondemand.net/media/final-cut-training/color01.aspx
>
>
>
>
>
>
>

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 11:01 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

Yeah, but I'm talking about a DOCUMENTARY editor.

I just helped cut a feature and we needed some extra shots during editing and we got them, but I worked on a lot of docs - mostly as an on-line editor, but working hand-in-hand with off-line cutters that I knew and talked to, and had never heard of a doc cutter sending her director back out for more shots.

It's cool that your wife is given the power to help determine the needed shots for her projects.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
co-author: "Color Correction for Video: revised edition," "Avid Xpress Pro Editing Workshop" and "Avid XpressDV On the Spot"
presenter: Class On Demand's "Complete Training for Avid Media Composer" AND "Complete Training for Apple Color"
www.classondemand.net/media/final-cut-training/color01.aspx


On Dec 20, 2010, at 12:38 PM, johnrobmoore wrote:

> Steve in my limited work with features it is quite common and I'm pretty sure budgeted in the production schedule to do pick ups and reshoots after editing has determined the need for more or different coverage etc... These reshoots happen after the director has worked with the editor so I can't say who is making the call but clearly the editor would have some say in what additional material might be needed. My wife offlines reenactment based crime shows and after the radio cut is done she sits down with the producer and director to tell them the coverage she needs before they begin shooting the reenactments. This has proven to be a more efficient use of production resources. So the editor's input on pick up shoots etc... might not be as rare as you think.
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:
>
> >
> > I loved that. Of course, rarely does the editor get to demand that the director go back out and grab stuff that's needed to better tell the story, but it showed the importance and power of the editor to know what was needed to properly tell the story.
> >
> >
> > Steve Hullfish
> > contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> > author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
> >
> > On Dec 19, 2010, at 11:26 PM, John Hollands wrote:
> > > Great Directors want Great Editors to say things to them like "I'd
> > > really like a shot of the finger on the trigger here" or "we definitely
> > > need a wide shot to see him escape"
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>
>

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

------------------------------------


Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/

<*> Your email settings:
Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/join
(Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:
Avid-L2-digest@yahoogroups.com
Avid-L2-fullfeatured@yahoogroups.com

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
Avid-L2-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Posted by Video Geek Squad at 10:45 AM 0 comments

[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

Steve in my limited work with features it is quite common and I'm pretty sure budgeted in the production schedule to do pick ups and reshoots after editing has determined the need for more or different coverage etc... These reshoots happen after the director has worked with the editor so I can't say who is making the call but clearly the editor would have some say in what additional material might be needed. My wife offlines reenactment based crime shows and after the radio cut is done she sits down with the producer and director to tell them the coverage she needs before they begin shooting the reenactments. This has proven to be a more efficient use of production resources. So the editor's input on pick up shoots etc... might not be as rare as you think.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Steve Hullfish <steve4lists@...> wrote:

>
> I loved that. Of course, rarely does the editor get to demand that the director go back out and grab stuff that's needed to better tell the story, but it showed the importance and power of the editor to know what was needed to properly tell the story.
>
>
> Steve Hullfish
> contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
> author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
>
> On Dec 19, 2010, at 11:26 PM, John Hollands wrote:
> > Great Directors want Great Editors to say things to them like "I'd
> > really like a shot of the finger on the trigger here" or "we definitely
> > need a wide shot to see him escape"
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

MARKETPLACE

Stay on top of your group activity without leaving the page you're on - Get the Yahoo! Toolbar now.

Find useful articles and helpful tips on living with Fibromyalgia. Visit the Fibromyalgia Zone today!

Be a homeroom hero! Help Yahoo! donate up to $350K to classrooms!

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 10:38 AM 0 comments

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread

 

This is actually another example of something from the very first Avid Master Editor's workshop: Paula Heredia was there as a documentary editor. She was talking about cutting a recent doc and described all of these shots she felt she needed for the cut. One of the workshop participants asked, "How did you get these perfect shots?" Her reply, "I sent the director back out for them!"

I loved that. Of course, rarely does the editor get to demand that the director go back out and grab stuff that's needed to better tell the story, but it showed the importance and power of the editor to know what was needed to properly tell the story.

Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"

On Dec 19, 2010, at 11:26 PM, John Hollands wrote:
> Great Directors want Great Editors to say things to them like "I'd
> really like a shot of the finger on the trigger here" or "we definitely
> need a wide shot to see him escape"

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

__._,_.___
Recent Activity:

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:   http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

.

__,_._,___
Posted by Video Geek Squad at 7:05 AM 0 comments
Subscribe to: Posts (Atom)