Re: The "tape is dead" thread
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/message/87081;_ylc=X3oDMTJzZHR2bWI1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1NDg2NTIxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA3MzI4OQRtc2dJZAM4NzA4MQRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjkyNzUwNzk5>
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> But Murch also said it doesn't work as well digitally because a
> computer can't reproduce every frame at high speed (refresh) so
> its not exactly like a KEM or flatbed.
>
In early days, many film-experienced Editors would slow down enough to
"spool down" to wherever they were working precisely because speeding
film can trigger new thoughts, occasionally bizarre thoughts - but it is
the THOUGHTS of Editors that make for filmic greatness.
I wanted to make two points about NLE: one is this idea of being just
like a film room.
It isn't. Just labelling folders as Bins isn't going to do it.
To be clear, I don't miss film, I never want to cut on film again, BUT
these things I miss:- I miss being able to look at a shot in the can and
instantly see if I have taken anything out of it or if it is still
completely intact. I miss that I can have my Assistant physically remove
every shot I have used, leaving only those not used.
I miss having an Assistant!
I also miss the greatest sync-lock ever; when I want to work on a scene
within a reel, I run down to it, cleanly break the reel at that point
and then my Assistant takes the scenes from the right and puts it on the
shelf. In my NLE I got bins, I got tracks but where is my SHELF???
(when I'm done messing around I just say "run this down in the
synchroniser and join the rest of the reel on")
NOW THE OTHER THING I thought worth mentioning for the youngsters is
another way, a different way to work.
That is; because of the way we can organise things in multiple bins with
subclips and such (I don't) there is a subtle effect on how the Editor
thinks. There is a temptation to work according to the material, rather
than the story.
A bit hard to explain but it is the difference between asking "what
shall I do with this close up?" and asking instead "at this part of the
story I want a close up, what have I got?" The second question makes you
more a collaborator, less a "chopper".
Great Directors want Great Editors to say things to them like "I'd
really like a shot of the finger on the trigger here" or "we definitely
need a wide shot to see him escape" or "we want a tight shot of him
clawing at the glass as the car sinks". All true examples BTW.
Another way, if you cannot read a script and mark it with your cuts
before anything is shot then you might still become Great but it will be
harder.
I remember seeing one of the Great Editors cutting a scene. He had cut
in slugs (pieces of opaque film) at various places. I asked what they
were there for, he said "that's her close up" I asked why didn't he cut
in the proper shot and he said "they haven't shot it yet, won't be shot
until next week".
Now THAT'S what I'm talking about.
john
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Sunday, December 19, 2010
Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
[Avid-L2] old threads never die OT:
Re: OT: Oki Dog Update just in time for the holiday break
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Avid-L2/message/87086;_ylc=X3oDMTJzaWlsc2I1BF9TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzE1NDg2NTIxBGdycHNwSWQDMTcwNjA3MzI4OQRtc2dJZAM4NzA4NgRzZWMDZG1zZwRzbGsDdm1zZwRzdGltZQMxMjkyNzUwNzk5>
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>
> Posted by: "Frank Capria" frank@capria.tv
> <mailto:frank@capria.tv?Subject=%20Re%3A%20OT%3A%20Oki%20Dog%20Update%20just%20in%20time%20for%20the%20holiday%20break>
> frankcapria <http://profiles.yahoo.com/frankcapria>
>
>
> Sat Dec 18, 2010 1:14 pm (PST)
>
> Enough already. The hot dog thread came and went about ten years
> ago. Time to move on.
>
Funny thing, I remember the List (old #1 List) ten or more years ago.
There was this feisty young guy, always ready with a quip. positively
bristling with vinegar.
He went over to the dark side, I think.
Probably a good thing, he was always too bossy to last long.
That sort of thing wouldn't happen now.
Happy Xmas Cranky Frankey.
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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
I absolutely agree that seeing while shuttling is useful. Editing isn't always just about "the good takes." I've been inspired by this when cutting docs, TV spots, trailers, music videos and straight drama.
It's about seeing some quick action or some odd shot that can be used in a cool way.
"Shuttling by" is definitely a valid way of seeing something that inspires a good editor. Most good editors I know agree. So, very possibly it is "just you."
Steve Hullfish
contributor: www.provideocoalition.com
author: "The Art and Technique of Digital Color Correction"
co-author: "Color Correction for Video: revised edition," "Avid Xpress Pro Editing Workshop" and "Avid XpressDV On the Spot"
presenter: Class On Demand's "Complete Training for Avid Media Composer" AND "Complete Training for Apple Color" AND "Avid Media Composer 5 for Final Cut Pro editors."
www.classondemand.net/media/final-cut-training/color01.aspx
On Dec 19, 2010, at 8:33 PM, switthaus wrote:
> huh? Shuttling by? Not sure thats a good way (for me) to choose good takes or parts of takes of a scene. Even when loading dailies from tape, I would capture the entire lab roll, then go back and subclip each scene, take, etc. Maybe thats just me, but...
>
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[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
I'm guessing you haven't read Murch's book. His point was that shuttling gave him time to take a mental break which allowed other ideas to percolate, and also allowed him to be reviewing other shots flying by which often triggered entirely different ideas that could end up being better.
I personally used to experience this cutting shows on a linear edit system. Often I'd see a shot flying by that was even better than the shot I was heading to use.
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@...> wrote:
>
> huh? Shuttling by? Not sure thats a good way (for me) to choose good takes or parts of takes of a scene. Even when loading dailies from tape, I would capture the entire lab roll, then go back and subclip each scene, take, etc. Maybe thats just me, but...
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@> wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
> >
> >
> > <<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
> >
> > You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
> >
>
[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
huh? Shuttling by? Not sure thats a good way (for me) to choose good takes or parts of takes of a scene. Even when loading dailies from tape, I would capture the entire lab roll, then go back and subclip each scene, take, etc. Maybe thats just me, but...
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Terence Curren" <tcurren@...> wrote:
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@> wrote:
>
>
> <<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
>
> You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
>
Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
This is an area where file based sources have helped me.
My usual XDCam workflow is to AMA one disk at a time.
String all the related clips into a sequence.
T&T out the parts that I know will never be used.
Consolidate the sequence to Unity or local drives.
When I'm editing, I often load a consolidated sequence into the source
monitor and scrub through it looking for shots. I do occasionally find
something better than what I thought I was looking for. Works best if
the consolidated sequences are fairly short and contain related
material. --J.B.
Terence Curren wrote:
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@...> wrote:
>
> <<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
>
> You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
>
[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "switthaus" <switthaus@...> wrote:
<<As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. >>
You're missing the point. It's not that you have never sen the shots, it's that you are constantly reminded of them when they are shuttling by.
[Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
That has to be the hardest purchase of all today for a post house: a $100k TAPE machine...
In the short-form world, I have not gone to tape with anything (unless the post house was asked to do it after the fact...I don't know about it) in well over a year. With the ability to to send a file via Fast Channel or something like that, there really is no need. And with the file based work, it keeps more billable hours in my shop and out of post houses that have the "big iron" that used to be needed for ingest and output. I can even budget and bill for file conversion time. Good for the smaller shop, not so good for post houses. There still is time in each of my budgets (for broadcast) for a post facility (color, sound design, QC, fx, etc.) but that has been drastically reduced in the past 36 months. I am really glad to be out of that side of the industry.
As far as tape being a way to get to know your footage better, I disagree. I still look at and sub-clip every shot, file or tape. Those old habits stick with me and I preach them to any younger editor I am teaching or training.
sw
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> Who want's to buy Sony SR 5500's at almost $100K a pop? Not me!
>
> We're already delivering digitally to two of the networks we work with. These are 75gig files of masters. But... here's the rub: They STILL want a tape back up!!!! So, until everyone totally goes tapeless, we're stuck making dubs.
>
> Until someone cracks the "archive media" issues (Faster/better/cheaper AND more durable than Videotape), we'll be stuck with tape for the foreseeable future.
>
> Mark
>
>
>
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "oliverpetersvidy" <oliverpeters@> wrote:
> >
> > > Steve Pomerantz wrote:
> > > We still output everything to tape for delivery
> > > to the networks.. usually HDcamSR.
> >
> > That, too, will soon go away. There are already networks accepting file-based delivery. Many have already adopted that internally if not for outside suppliers. This trend will continue, because the network bean-counters will increasingly refuse to cough up the cash to repair/replace dying decks. Especially if they get used less and less in daily operations.
> >
> > - Oliver
> >
>
Re: [Avid-L2] Re: The "tape is dead" thread
"Mander5161" (19-12-2010 03:16) :
> Ah, but remember that in the film days, stock was so damn expensive that the
> camera guys rarely had anything extra shot for fear of using a few extra feet
> and getting yelled at.
I think you're missing the point. It's not about finding extra shots, it's
about being confronted with other shots than the exact shot you think you're
looking for. If everything is prelabeled and preorganized and separated, you
might miss out on footage surprising you.
--
Job ter Burg
film editor - NL
[Avid-L2] Re: OT: Oki Dog Update just in time for the holiday break
Chris I think you've hit the nail on the head. All these years I thought I was just passing on goofy anecdotes about a funky hot dog shack in Hollywood. But in reality I must have been subconsciously dealing with my frustration with Avid's color corrector. In hind sight if Oki Dog of all places can remodel and update why can't the Avid color corrector get some sprucing up. As much as I like the Avid color correction for the types of shows I work on the fact that the master clip non linear application of color correction was broken between 3.5 and 4.x is harder to stomach than an Oki dog on the worst of days. You've made me see the light once again. ;-)
--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, chris magid <chris_rtvf@...> wrote:
>
> Lets try this again. My apologies for the preemptive publication of my last
> message. My iPhone thought I was done.
>
> What I was trying to say to Frank is I understand how tiresome it can be dealing
> with the same thing for 10 years.
>
> It is a lot like the lack of progress in improving the Symphony color corrector
> or addressing long standing concerns from veteran users.
>
>
> We've been bitching and moaning about a lot of things for 10 years or longer.
> Frank is right. It gets old. Would be nice to move on. But alas, we can't. Many
> of the same things we needed fixed then, still need to be fixed now.
>
>
> So, take your pick...OKI DOGs or an earful about some very questionable
> priorities when it comes to the direction of Composer development.
>
>
> Of course. If there is anything Frank can do to modernize the effects
> architecture, contemporarize the color corrector and tackle some real
> performance, quality and usability issues then I think I can negotiate with John
> Moore to cease and desist with Oki Dog updates.
>
>
> Merry Christmas
>
> Christopher Magid
> RTVF
>
>
>
>
> ________________________________
> From: Chris <chris_rtvf@...>
> To: "Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com" <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> Cc: "Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com" <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sat, December 18, 2010 5:26:38 PM
> Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] OT: Oki Dog Update just in time for the holiday break
>
>
> Well Frank.
>
> Chris Magid
> RTVF
> Office- 214 350 7212
> Cell---- 214 766 7212
>
> On Dec 18, 2010, at 3:13 PM, Frank Capria <frank@...> wrote:
>
> Enough already. The hot dog thread came and went about ten years ago. Time
> to move on.
>
> On Sat, Dec 18, 2010 at 1:28 AM, John Moore <bigfish@...> wrote:
>
> > The Oki Elfs have been busy and there are new wooden laminate table tops at
> > Oki Dog. The old orange tables are gone. Only the old orange bench seats
> > remain but in true Oki fashion the new table tops were place on top of the
> > existing structure so now the tables feel a little on the high side. There
> > is also a new refrigerator display unit in the main dining area. Empty now
> > but I'm told it will be used for juices, and after 1 am a beer locker ;-).
> > At first glance at the new layout I was mortified to see the Pac Man game
> > missing and in it''s place a "Force 2006 Megatouch" video card game. I
> > asked what happened and was told it was just moved to the other side of the
> > room, whew! Now back to dinner.
> >
> > John Moore
> >
> > Barking Trout Productions
> >
> > Studio City, CA
> >
> > bigfish@...
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> >
> > Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:
> > http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
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