Monday, January 25, 2010

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

"phillipsm" (25-01-2010 13:22) :

> why only have 24 hours in a postproduction process

Hear ye, hear ye.

And while we're at it, why only seven days in one week?
Would love to work more than that ;-)


--
Job ter Burg
film editor - NL

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[Avid-L2] Re: [FCP-L] A BluRay Recorder at last

Agreed. Not only is it a royal PITA to work with, but my first
impression was that I was at a sketchy Warez site and was about to hit
the panic button until I noticed some reassuring text. Really, really
needs a bit LESS design.

Cheers,
tod

On Jan 23, 2010, at 6:29 PM, Bob Zelin wrote:

> frontniche is in the running for the world worst website.
> It is hard to believe that this company has a product that can make
> them millions, and you can't find out any info
> on the product, least not navigate their website, without pure luck.
> Does not give me confidence in any of it.
>
> Bob Zelin
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: tcurren
> To: FinalCutPro-L ; AvidL2
> Sent: Wednesday, January 20, 2010 4:26 PM
> Subject: [FCP-L] A BluRay Recorder at last
>
> Guess someone was listening:
>
> http://tinyurl.com/y8c8kzr
> --
> Terence Curren
> Alpha Dogs, Inc.
> Burbank, CA
> www.alphadogs.tv
> www.digitalservicestation.com
> www.editorslounge.com
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>
>
>

Tod Hopkins
Hillmann & Carr Inc.
todhopkins@hillmanncarr.com

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976 FR:

Michael,

Good point. Someone has to be First.

Not the first place I see a use for it however why not institute it in
Airspeed and in Newscutter/Composer. I know it is the back end of the
horse for most purposes but someone has to claim First.

I have worked on productions where going over the 24 hour record limit
in acquistion would have been useful. Being able to use 99 hour record
times would have been more succinct than adding the dates or an extra
letter on the reels when the record went over the top.

DD

phillipsm wrote:
>
>
> And while we're at it, why only have 24 hours in a postproduction
> process? I am not talking about acquisition for REC RUN - but in post
> for transfers and selects reels - why not have up to 99:59:59:xx?
>
> Michael
>
>
>

--
David Dawkins
780-905-9121
dawk2@shaw.ca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

Semantics aside, my point was to illustrate that both TOD and REC RUN are still used in today's workflows and that both source ID's can be used in an EDL. While I agree that terms like Labroll and Camroll aren't the greatest, I still use Camroll to represent the media that came off a single card from my XDCAM... it's as good as any I guess. Even the RED file name has a section called REEL. There are plenty of custom columns one can create for more comfortable terms, but they could only be used as a source ID via XML at this time.

Back to Bouke's original point about a drop frame 24TC. I think that is a good idea and has been discussed internally before to reflect wall time when working at 23.976 for the production master used in NTSC based television countries. It can be "manufactured" as a display pretty easily. Much like the other manufactured timecode that are in MC and not part of SMPTE standards such as:

25PD: PAL 24fps played out with pulldown (12 frames + 1 field)
30NP: 23.976 or 24 played out as 29.97 with 2:2:2:2 pulldown
60P: 60fps timecode. While the format exists, there is no SMPTE standard for it - all driven by 30fps standards.

And while we're at it, why only have 24 hours in a postproduction process? I am not talking about acquisition for REC RUN - but in post for transfers and selects reels - why not have up to 99:59:59:xx?

Michael

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> "Labroll", "onelight"... seems like the terminology needs to update along with the technology.
>
> Makr
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@> wrote:
> >
> > I am not at all referring to film. I am referring to tape based and file based acquired shows and how they are being handled in Amercan primetine television. I did not mention the word film omce.
> >
> > Michzel
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@> wrote:
> > >
> > > You're assuming that people are still shooting film... I think the discussion started with the assumption that acquisition is FILE BASED.
> > >
> > > Mark
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > In the higher end television workflows you will see a blend of REC RUN and TOD in the workflow. When dailies go through a facility for a basic one light and selects "reel" the START now reflects the selects and the "Tape" - this is the REC RUN version. But each of those clips maintain the original source and TOD timecode from the originals - be it file based or tape. These values get tracked in a variety of columns - TC24, AUXTC24, AuxTC 1-5, etc. Alternate sources are tracked in Camroll or Labroll depending on how may generations need to be tracked. EDL Manager can then output any source TC and Reel combo for online needs downstream. Avid tracks it all. SO it is about getting the best workflow for the production at hand - and while 80% are the same, it can be the 20% differences that kill you! ;)
> > > >
> > > > Michael
> > > >
> > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Pierre H <ph@> wrote:
> > > > >
> > > > > Bouke said:
> > > > > > I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> > > > > > file
> > > > > > based shoots / workflows.
> > > > >
> > > > > Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
> > > > > before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
> > > > > based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
> > > > > add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
> > > > > That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
> > > > > the same TC twice.
> > > > > RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
> > > > > most departments.
> > > > >
> > > > > Pierre
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots,and to introduce 23.976

"Flashing!" is what the Still Photographer yells.so nobody thinks a lamp exploded.

Randy

Sent via BlackBerry by AT&T
*******************************
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-----Original Message-----
From: Jimmy Dutt <bytemonkey@mac.com>
Date: Mon, 25 Jan 2010 02:18:52
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots,
and to introduce 23.976


On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:46 AM, Job ter Burg (L2B) wrote:

>
> "Tape", "Reel"... ;-)


At least with hard-drives, yelling "SPEED" is still valid. I guess
the SSD alternative would be "FLASHING"?

-jimmy (you be quiet over there, Mr. Moore :)

--

BYTEmonkeys
Creativity for your Creative
http://bytemonkeys.tv
692 N. High St., Suite 304
Columbus, OH 43215
614.824.1685




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OT: Re: [Avid-L2] Saints!!!

Great for the Big Easy. The press will have fun with Archie's boy taking on
the "ain'ts". One of the sports guys commented that Brees only plays well
in Black and Gold. Oh well, he has a short memory.

Quin - in Blue & White ;-)

In a message dated 1/25/2010 3:47:42 AM Eastern Standard Time,
ltr54@sbcglobal.net writes:

Sorry to detour from work BUT they finally did it. They are in the
Superbowl! After 40 something years... I'm still in a state of shock.

All the Oki Dogs are on me!

TMcD

Quinton Lee, M.I.S.


[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Saints!!!

Sorry to detour from work BUT they finally did it. They are in the
Superbowl! After 40 something years... I'm still in a state of shock.

All the Oki Dogs are on me!

TMcD

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

Of course i'll loop it!
(the 6 frames of clean roomtone i can find in his material)

Sigh indeed, now back to coding...

Bouke

VideoToolShed
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS NIJMEGEN
The Netherlands
+31 24 3553311
www.videotoolshed.com
For large files:
http://dropbox.yousendit.com/BoukeVahl998172

----- Original Message -----
From: "Jimmy Dutt" <bytemonkey@mac.com>
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 9:02 AM
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and
to introduce 23.976


>
> On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:21 AM, Job ter Burg (L2B) wrote:
>
>> Yes, but what exactly are they supposed to do when they need to "Roll
>> Sound!"? Roll what and where and in what direction?
>
> I woke up the sound guy and asked; he said "it doesn't matter -
> they'll loop it anyway."
>
> (sigh)
>
> --
>
> BYTEmonkeys
> Creativity for your Creative
> http://bytemonkeys.tv
> 692 N. High St., Suite 304
> Columbus, OH 43215
> 614.824.1685
>
>
>
>


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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

On Jan 25, 2010, at 2:21 AM, Job ter Burg (L2B) wrote:

> Yes, but what exactly are they supposed to do when they need to "Roll
> Sound!"? Roll what and where and in what direction?

I woke up the sound guy and asked; he said "it doesn't matter -
they'll loop it anyway."

(sigh)

--

BYTEmonkeys
Creativity for your Creative
http://bytemonkeys.tv
692 N. High St., Suite 304
Columbus, OH 43215
614.824.1685

------------------------------------

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Sunday, January 24, 2010

Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

"Jimmy Dutt" (25-01-2010 08:18) :

> At least with hard-drives, yelling "SPEED" is still valid. I guess
> the SSD alternative would be "FLASHING"?

Yes, but what exactly are they supposed to do when they need to "Roll
Sound!"? Roll what and where and in what direction?


--
Job ter Burg
film editor - NL

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

On Jan 25, 2010, at 1:46 AM, Job ter Burg (L2B) wrote:

>
> "Tape", "Reel"... ;-)


At least with hard-drives, yelling "SPEED" is still valid. I guess
the SSD alternative would be "FLASHING"?

-jimmy (you be quiet over there, Mr. Moore :)

--

BYTEmonkeys
Creativity for your Creative
http://bytemonkeys.tv
692 N. High St., Suite 304
Columbus, OH 43215
614.824.1685

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

"Mark" (25-01-2010 02:25) :

> "Labroll", "onelight"... seems like the terminology needs to update along
> with the technology.


"Tape", "Reel"... ;-)


--
Job ter Burg
film editor - NL


------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Allright, i'm onto it....

Bouke

VideoToolShed
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS NIJMEGEN
The Netherlands
+31 24 3553311
www.videotoolshed.com
For large files:
http://dropbox.yousendit.com/BoukeVahl998172

----- Original Message -----
From: "blafarm" <blafarm@yahoo.com>
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2010 2:30 AM
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....


>Oliver
>I've done a bit more testing on MC today and I'm not really sure that the
>'ignoreQtrate true' command works.

I agree. Two months ago an Avid tech and I tried to determine if that
command worked with 5D files -- and we decided it seemed to do nothing.


>Michael
>then the only difference would be having both a Mac and a PC version
>available. ;)

Me too! I'd pay for a PC version that also had Metacheater functionality.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "oliverpetersvidy" <oliverpeters@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> As I mentioned here's a link to the blog post for 5D post. There's also a
> link within the post to the spot on Vimeo.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj2f2rs
>
> - Oliver
>


------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976 OT:

Time for another holiday...

D9damm kee brd)D

Mark wrote:
>
>
> "Labroll", "onelight"... seems like the terminology needs to update
> along with the technology.
>
> Makr
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Avid-L2%40yahoogroups.com>,
> "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@...> wrote:
> >
> > I am not at all referring to film. I am referring to tape based and
> file based acquired shows and how they are being handled in Amercan
> primetine television. I did not mention the word film omce.
> >
> > Michzel
> >
> >
>

--
David Dawkins
780-905-9121
dawk2@shaw.ca

[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

>Oliver
>I've done a bit more testing on MC today and I'm not really sure that the 'ignoreQtrate true' command works.

I agree. Two months ago an Avid tech and I tried to determine if that command worked with 5D files -- and we decided it seemed to do nothing.


>Michael
>then the only difference would be having both a Mac and a PC version available. ;)

Me too! I'd pay for a PC version that also had Metacheater functionality.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "oliverpetersvidy" <oliverpeters@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> As I mentioned here's a link to the blog post for 5D post. There's also a link within the post to the spot on Vimeo.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj2f2rs
>
> - Oliver
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

"Labroll", "onelight"... seems like the terminology needs to update along with the technology.

Makr

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@...> wrote:
>
> I am not at all referring to film. I am referring to tape based and file based acquired shows and how they are being handled in Amercan primetine television. I did not mention the word film omce.
>
> Michzel
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@> wrote:
> >
> > You're assuming that people are still shooting film... I think the discussion started with the assumption that acquisition is FILE BASED.
> >
> > Mark
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@> wrote:
> > >
> > > In the higher end television workflows you will see a blend of REC RUN and TOD in the workflow. When dailies go through a facility for a basic one light and selects "reel" the START now reflects the selects and the "Tape" - this is the REC RUN version. But each of those clips maintain the original source and TOD timecode from the originals - be it file based or tape. These values get tracked in a variety of columns - TC24, AUXTC24, AuxTC 1-5, etc. Alternate sources are tracked in Camroll or Labroll depending on how may generations need to be tracked. EDL Manager can then output any source TC and Reel combo for online needs downstream. Avid tracks it all. SO it is about getting the best workflow for the production at hand - and while 80% are the same, it can be the 20% differences that kill you! ;)
> > >
> > > Michael
> > >
> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Pierre H <ph@> wrote:
> > > >
> > > > Bouke said:
> > > > > I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> > > > > file
> > > > > based shoots / workflows.
> > > >
> > > > Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
> > > > before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
> > > > based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
> > > > add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
> > > > That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
> > > > the same TC twice.
> > > > RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
> > > > most departments.
> > > >
> > > > Pierre
> > > >
> > >
> >
>


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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

One further MC / 5D test.

I stripped off the audio from the H264 30fps camera file (as Michael's original post had suggested), used the 'ignoreQtrate true' console command and imported into MC. Now the file matches the 1:44:09 duration of the file converted to ProRes 29.97 before import.

So I guess you do one of two dances with double-system: 1) Convert before import; or 2) strip off audio and convert during import. This appears to mean that if you import a combined a/v clip, the file will have a few dropped frames somewhere within the clip.

- Oliver

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Hi,

Thanks for the good words.

> blafarm wrote:
> I've been simply importing those aforementioned
> 5D files into MC without any problems -- and have
> not separately imported audio or used any console
> commands on the video.

The console command is Michael's suggestion. I've done a bit more testing on MC today and I'm not really sure that the 'ignoreQtrate true' command works. I imported one of the 29.97 ProRes converted files (converting to DNxHD on import) into MC4, as well as the original H264 file normally and with the 'ignoreQtrate true' command.

Camera audio is fine, but I really think MC is dropping a few frames on the 30fps imports (either condition). The ProRes 29.97 import was 1:44:09 in duration. The two H264 30fps files were 1:44:06 after each import. So it didn't look like the console command made any difference. Maybe that's because of the long-GOP nature of the H264 files. Note that I did this WITH audio and didn't strip out audio first. Maybe that's a factor in the sync with double-system audio.

When I synced these up to a WAV file that was restamped as 47952, sync was solid throughout the ProRes clip, but drifted on both the H264 clips. However, when I used the original WAV file (48K) it's largely in sync on both the H264-imported files, but ever so slightly more in sync at the end on the file imported using the 'ignoreQtrate' command. This exercise tends to tells me that even though it's an extra step and can take extra time, you get better and more reliable results with double-system projects if you convert to 29.97 and 47952 prior to import into Media Composer.

> 2. I have not yet had the need to convert 29.97 --
> to 23.976 or 24 to achieve a filmic look. I'm guessing
> the most efficient way to accomplish this is to use
> Avid's Mix & Match motion adapters

I haven't tried this yet, but you should get good results.

Cheers,
Oliver

------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

I am not at all referring to film. I am referring to tape based and file based acquired shows and how they are being handled in Amercan primetine television. I did not mention the word film omce.

Michzel

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mark" <markraudonis@...> wrote:
>
> You're assuming that people are still shooting film... I think the discussion started with the assumption that acquisition is FILE BASED.
>
> Mark
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@> wrote:
> >
> > In the higher end television workflows you will see a blend of REC RUN and TOD in the workflow. When dailies go through a facility for a basic one light and selects "reel" the START now reflects the selects and the "Tape" - this is the REC RUN version. But each of those clips maintain the original source and TOD timecode from the originals - be it file based or tape. These values get tracked in a variety of columns - TC24, AUXTC24, AuxTC 1-5, etc. Alternate sources are tracked in Camroll or Labroll depending on how may generations need to be tracked. EDL Manager can then output any source TC and Reel combo for online needs downstream. Avid tracks it all. SO it is about getting the best workflow for the production at hand - and while 80% are the same, it can be the 20% differences that kill you! ;)
> >
> > Michael
> >
> > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Pierre H <ph@> wrote:
> > >
> > > Bouke said:
> > > > I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> > > > file
> > > > based shoots / workflows.
> > >
> > > Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
> > > before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
> > > based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
> > > add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
> > > That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
> > > the same TC twice.
> > > RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
> > > most departments.
> > >
> > > Pierre
> > >
> >
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Nice write-up Oliver. Thank you.

Couple of things:

1. A portion of the 5D footage I've been cutting has been shot by a DP who is occasionally forced to record using internal audio due to run-and-gun conditions. You mention double system shoots and that "Avid will convert these files to the correct rate on import, if audio and video tracks have been separated". I've been simply importing those aforementioned 5D files into MC without any problems -- and have not separately imported audio or used any console commands on the video. My perception is that Avid is slowing down both the video and integrated audio by the same rate. Is there a fundamental problem with my workflow that I am not aware of?

2. I have not yet had the need to convert 29.97 -- to 23.976 or 24 to achieve a filmic look. I'm guessing the most efficient way to accomplish this is to use Avid's Mix & Match motion adapters -- by just opening the 29.97 sequence in a 24 project. Do you happen to know if using this technique looks any better or worse than your FCP workflow? And, do you see any point in exporting the 29.97 cut in Avid -- and re-importing it?

3. You referenced R-Name in your article. For Windows users who only need rudimentary file renaming (not QtChange or Metacheater features) -- I have used a program called Flash Renamer with very good results
http://www.rlvision.com/flashren/about.asp

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "oliverpetersvidy" <oliverpeters@...> wrote:
>
> Tom,
>
> As I mentioned here's a link to the blog post for 5D post. There's also a link within the post to the spot on Vimeo.
>
> http://tinyurl.com/yj2f2rs
>
> - Oliver
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: Spoken word search - Video Editing, Production

I know this is a somewhat dated thread -- but what about enhancing your product to include the featureset of Pluraleyes. This is a sorely missing feature in Avid.

http://singularsoftware.com/

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "kip.watters" <kwatters@...> wrote:
>
> My name is Kip Watters – I am the Director or Product Management for Media at Nexidia. Nexidia is the company whose technology powers ScriptSync in Avid's Media Composer and other Avid products. ScriptSync is just one way to utilize Nexidia's "phonetic search" capability – time-aligning selections of a script with one or more scenes in a movie production.
>
> I am interested in hearing your thoughts on other ways that search of spoken word content in audio and video would benefit the professional video editing community.
>
> For example, would having access to a search box through Avid client applications capable of quickly finding all occurrences of a word or phrase (anything you typed in) within a local or network-based content archive – similar to a Google search for untranscribed audio and video – be valuable? Search results would jump you directly to each place in the audio where the search term was spoken.
>
> This search would not rely on manual tagging, descriptions, captions, etc. of content, and is independent of any existing metadata (title, tags, descriptions, character names, etc.) that may already be searchable. In fact, spoken-word and metadata-based search could be combined to ensure that all information, including what the actors say, is searched together.
>
> Would an audio search be more useful in a specific application that you use, and if so, which applications?
>
> Do you have examples of jobs you work on in which fast, on-demand access to target content via keyword/phrase search would make it easier or possible to do things that you cannot do today?
>
> Love to have your ideas and other thoughts on how spoken word search could be applied in the Video Editing and Asset Management areas.
>
> A couple of additional notes on Nexidia Search capability:
>
> 1) Rather than producing a text transcript, Nexidia's indexing process (which produces a small index file for each media file) is several hundred times faster than speech-to-text (a 1 hour video becomes searchable in a few seconds).
>
> 2) Phonetic search, unlike speech to text, does not require every word to be in the "dictionary" of possible terms for it to be found. This is especially important when searching regional or topical content with unique proper name and colloquialisms. Nexidia is also more tolerant of background noise and does not require a perfect recording to be useful.
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Michael,

As an addendum to my earlier post, I just tried some of my dailies again using Wave Agent to restamp the files as 47952. These synced just fine in FCP to the 29.97 files, although it requires a render to get the right sample rate. This time it worked, before it didn't - go figure. Might have been issues with the other apps I used or it might have been FCP. In any case, I tend to dislike how FCP handles audio file rendering and so would still opt to convert before bringing it into FCP.

BTW - This was Wave Agent Beta, which seems a bit unstable on Snow Leopard. A number of unexpected quits.

Thanks.

Cheers,
Oliver

------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, andto introduce 23.976

Dudes,
The TOD stuff was an introduction on the REAL issue:
the need for DF TC on 23.976 (that Job will probalbly never will see...)

Bouke

VideoToolShed
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS NIJMEGEN
The Netherlands
+31 24 3553311
www.videotoolshed.com
For large files:
http://dropbox.yousendit.com/BoukeVahl998172

----- Original Message -----
From: "Job ter Burg (L2B)" <Job_L2@terburg.com>
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 7:12 PM
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, andto
introduce 23.976


> "Mark" (24-01-2010 18:58) :
>
>> You're assuming that people are still shooting film.
>
> You are assuming that Michael was talking about film.
>
> Pretty common workflow for Red over the last two years has been to import
> all R3D's into Scratch, do a grade (one light/best light, whatever is
> desired), playout to a tape (with new continuous TC), offline edit
> (tracking
> both TOD of the R3D's and the continuous Beta TC in the metadata), EDL,
> reconform in Scratch, final grade and output.
>
> --
> Job ter Burg
> film editor - NL
>
>
>


------------------------------------

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

"Mark" (24-01-2010 18:58) :

> You're assuming that people are still shooting film.

You are assuming that Michael was talking about film.

Pretty common workflow for Red over the last two years has been to import
all R3D's into Scratch, do a grade (one light/best light, whatever is
desired), playout to a tape (with new continuous TC), offline edit (tracking
both TOD of the R3D's and the continuous Beta TC in the metadata), EDL,
reconform in Scratch, final grade and output.

--
Job ter Burg
film editor - NL


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

You're assuming that people are still shooting film... I think the discussion started with the assumption that acquisition is FILE BASED.

Mark

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@...> wrote:
>
> In the higher end television workflows you will see a blend of REC RUN and TOD in the workflow. When dailies go through a facility for a basic one light and selects "reel" the START now reflects the selects and the "Tape" - this is the REC RUN version. But each of those clips maintain the original source and TOD timecode from the originals - be it file based or tape. These values get tracked in a variety of columns - TC24, AUXTC24, AuxTC 1-5, etc. Alternate sources are tracked in Camroll or Labroll depending on how may generations need to be tracked. EDL Manager can then output any source TC and Reel combo for online needs downstream. Avid tracks it all. SO it is about getting the best workflow for the production at hand - and while 80% are the same, it can be the 20% differences that kill you! ;)
>
> Michael
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Pierre H <ph@> wrote:
> >
> > Bouke said:
> > > I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> > > file
> > > based shoots / workflows.
> >
> > Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
> > before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
> > based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
> > add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
> > That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
> > the same TC twice.
> > RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
> > most departments.
> >
> > Pierre
> >
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Michael,

> michael_phillips wrote:
> For audio. I really like WaveAgent from SoundDevices
> as a free utility for both Mac and Windows that allows
> setting a sample rate to audio files, timecode, etc.

Thanks for your feedback. The reason I went into lengths on the speed conversion was because of the peculiarities of cutting this spot in FCP. I have had mixed results with FCP projects and how they handle sync with separate audio. I tried restamping sample rates on this project with several different rates and different apps and in all case got drift. It seems that FCP wants to hold the duration constant and therefore "adjusts" the audio (now with restamped rate) back to 48k holding the duration constant. It does this through an audio render. In testing various options, encoding a speed-adjusted 48k file was the most accurate with sync and gave me reliable results. MC obviously handles this differently.

- Oliver

------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

In the higher end television workflows you will see a blend of REC RUN and TOD in the workflow. When dailies go through a facility for a basic one light and selects "reel" the START now reflects the selects and the "Tape" - this is the REC RUN version. But each of those clips maintain the original source and TOD timecode from the originals - be it file based or tape. These values get tracked in a variety of columns - TC24, AUXTC24, AuxTC 1-5, etc. Alternate sources are tracked in Camroll or Labroll depending on how may generations need to be tracked. EDL Manager can then output any source TC and Reel combo for online needs downstream. Avid tracks it all. SO it is about getting the best workflow for the production at hand - and while 80% are the same, it can be the 20% differences that kill you! ;)

Michael

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Pierre H <ph@...> wrote:
>
> Bouke said:
> > I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> > file
> > based shoots / workflows.
>
> Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
> before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
> based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
> add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
> That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
> the same TC twice.
> RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
> most departments.
>
> Pierre
>


------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

good morning Bouke -

That's a great feature which follows along your TOD versus REC RUN thoughts in another thread. We are aware of the lack of REEL ID when dealing with file-based formats... plenty of thinking going in that area within Avid.

I have always told Jabez that it was a goal to no longer need MetaCheater for anything... we had a good laugh about that and things are getting close... I have not heard back from Jabez on whether he will be updating MetaCheater or not. I am sure he has been busy for the last year or so as editor on Lovely Bones and his next project. But it would be great to have MetaCheater type capabilities in QTChange... then the only difference would be having both a Mac and a PC version available. ;)

Michael

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Bouke" <bouke@...> wrote:
>
> Philip,
> MC do read and insert QT TC, but do not include the reelname!
> Why is that?
>
> And, latest version of my QT change app. now adds TC from the Canon's
> metadate, thus way more accurate than the file date / time.
> So with IgnoreQTrate = true and QTchange the MetaCheater dance is not
> needed.
> (except of course if you want other metadata to come across, in that case it
> could make a nice combo)
>
> If Zabev has no time, get back to me and i'll add Metacheater functionality
> to QTchange.
>
> Bouke
>
> VideoToolShed
> van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
> 6512 AS NIJMEGEN
> The Netherlands
> +31 24 3553311
> www.videotoolshed.com
> For large files:
> http://dropbox.yousendit.com/BoukeVahl998172
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@...>
> To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
> Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:52 PM
> Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....
>
>
> Great overview Oliver. Just a few tweaks for clarification purposes...
>
> Recent versions of Media Composer and Symphony do read and insert timecode
> for QT for import/export. The issue with the 5D files specifically is that
> they do not contain a timecode. One could easily imagine converting creation
> date into a reel ID and HH:MM:xx;xx where xx:xx are defaulted to 00:00. I
> have made this request to Zabez, the creator of MetaCheater. But MetaCheater
> does have a nice feature for non timecoded sources where the user can define
> a timecode for the sync point of all the files in the batch and then
> calculate all START and END for clips based on clip's duration. Then you can
> default to clip name as TAPE or enter any of your own choice for
> organizational purposes.
>
> The added benefit of using MetaCheater is some workflows is to give the clip
> the behavior of a tape-based clip where additional metadata, offset
> relinking, EDL's, pull lists can be generated. In workflows where that is
> not needed, then a one-time transcode to finishing resolution of choice
> works fine without the ALE merge step.
>
> For audio. I really like WaveAgent from SoundDevices as a free utility for
> both Mac and Windows that allows setting a sample rate to audio files,
> timecode, etc. A basic rule to observe when going from 30.00 to 29.97 (and
> is the same for 24.000 to 23.976) is that if recording on a separate device
> on set to record 48.048kHz. If that was not done on set, and the files were
> recorded at 48kHz, then the sample rate should be reset to 47.952kHz in an
> application like WaveAgent. Be sure to set the audio import correctly for
> the .1% duration changes.
>
> Michael
>
> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Womble <cre8tive@> wrote:
> >
> > Oliver,
> >
> > Very handy, succinct reference tool. I will be referencing it often when
> > others (Cow, etc.) ask how to post their 5D footage.
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Joe Womble
> >
> > On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:03 PM, oliverpetersvidy <
> > oliverpeters@> wrote:
> >
> > > Ian,
> > >
> > > > I see that Phillip Bloom is also promoting the link in his Twitter
> > > > feed.
> > > > Ian Wilson
> > >
> > > Yes, I saw that. Nice of him to do so. I reference him a lot in the post
> > > and many of the workflow things I'm doing were picked up by me from his
> > > blog
> > > entries ( http://philipbloom.co.uk/blog/ ).
> > >
> > > - Oliver
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ------------------------------------
> > >
> > > Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged
> > > Haiti:
> > > http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney
> > >
> > > Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:
> > > http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> > >
> > > Yahoo! Groups Links
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> >
>


------------------------------------

Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged Haiti: http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

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Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Philip,
MC do read and insert QT TC, but do not include the reelname!
Why is that?

And, latest version of my QT change app. now adds TC from the Canon's
metadate, thus way more accurate than the file date / time.
So with IgnoreQTrate = true and QTchange the MetaCheater dance is not
needed.
(except of course if you want other metadata to come across, in that case it
could make a nice combo)

If Zabev has no time, get back to me and i'll add Metacheater functionality
to QTchange.

Bouke

VideoToolShed
van Oldenbarneveltstraat 33
6512 AS NIJMEGEN
The Netherlands
+31 24 3553311
www.videotoolshed.com
For large files:
http://dropbox.yousendit.com/BoukeVahl998172

----- Original Message -----
From: "phillipsm" <michael_phillips@avid.com>
To: <Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com>
Sent: Sunday, January 24, 2010 3:52 PM
Subject: [Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....


Great overview Oliver. Just a few tweaks for clarification purposes...

Recent versions of Media Composer and Symphony do read and insert timecode
for QT for import/export. The issue with the 5D files specifically is that
they do not contain a timecode. One could easily imagine converting creation
date into a reel ID and HH:MM:xx;xx where xx:xx are defaulted to 00:00. I
have made this request to Zabez, the creator of MetaCheater. But MetaCheater
does have a nice feature for non timecoded sources where the user can define
a timecode for the sync point of all the files in the batch and then
calculate all START and END for clips based on clip's duration. Then you can
default to clip name as TAPE or enter any of your own choice for
organizational purposes.

The added benefit of using MetaCheater is some workflows is to give the clip
the behavior of a tape-based clip where additional metadata, offset
relinking, EDL's, pull lists can be generated. In workflows where that is
not needed, then a one-time transcode to finishing resolution of choice
works fine without the ALE merge step.

For audio. I really like WaveAgent from SoundDevices as a free utility for
both Mac and Windows that allows setting a sample rate to audio files,
timecode, etc. A basic rule to observe when going from 30.00 to 29.97 (and
is the same for 24.000 to 23.976) is that if recording on a separate device
on set to record 48.048kHz. If that was not done on set, and the files were
recorded at 48kHz, then the sample rate should be reset to 47.952kHz in an
application like WaveAgent. Be sure to set the audio import correctly for
the .1% duration changes.

Michael

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Womble <cre8tive@...> wrote:
>
> Oliver,
>
> Very handy, succinct reference tool. I will be referencing it often when
> others (Cow, etc.) ask how to post their 5D footage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe Womble
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:03 PM, oliverpetersvidy <
> oliverpeters@...> wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > > I see that Phillip Bloom is also promoting the link in his Twitter
> > > feed.
> > > Ian Wilson
> >
> > Yes, I saw that. Nice of him to do so. I reference him a lot in the post
> > and many of the workflow things I'm doing were picked up by me from his
> > blog
> > entries ( http://philipbloom.co.uk/blog/ ).
> >
> > - Oliver
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged
> > Haiti:
> > http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney
> >
> > Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:
> > http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


------------------------------------

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Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

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[Avid-L2] Re: Canon D5....

Great overview Oliver. Just a few tweaks for clarification purposes...

Recent versions of Media Composer and Symphony do read and insert timecode for QT for import/export. The issue with the 5D files specifically is that they do not contain a timecode. One could easily imagine converting creation date into a reel ID and HH:MM:xx;xx where xx:xx are defaulted to 00:00. I have made this request to Zabez, the creator of MetaCheater. But MetaCheater does have a nice feature for non timecoded sources where the user can define a timecode for the sync point of all the files in the batch and then calculate all START and END for clips based on clip's duration. Then you can default to clip name as TAPE or enter any of your own choice for organizational purposes.

The added benefit of using MetaCheater is some workflows is to give the clip the behavior of a tape-based clip where additional metadata, offset relinking, EDL's, pull lists can be generated. In workflows where that is not needed, then a one-time transcode to finishing resolution of choice works fine without the ALE merge step.

For audio. I really like WaveAgent from SoundDevices as a free utility for both Mac and Windows that allows setting a sample rate to audio files, timecode, etc. A basic rule to observe when going from 30.00 to 29.97 (and is the same for 24.000 to 23.976) is that if recording on a separate device on set to record 48.048kHz. If that was not done on set, and the files were recorded at 48kHz, then the sample rate should be reset to 47.952kHz in an application like WaveAgent. Be sure to set the audio import correctly for the .1% duration changes.

Michael

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Joe Womble <cre8tive@...> wrote:
>
> Oliver,
>
> Very handy, succinct reference tool. I will be referencing it often when
> others (Cow, etc.) ask how to post their 5D footage.
>
> Regards,
>
> Joe Womble
>
> On Sat, Jan 23, 2010 at 7:03 PM, oliverpetersvidy <
> oliverpeters@...> wrote:
>
> > Ian,
> >
> > > I see that Phillip Bloom is also promoting the link in his Twitter feed.
> > > Ian Wilson
> >
> > Yes, I saw that. Nice of him to do so. I reference him a lot in the post
> > and many of the workflow things I'm doing were picked up by me from his blog
> > entries ( http://philipbloom.co.uk/blog/ ).
> >
> > - Oliver
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------------
> >
> > Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged Haiti:
> > http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney
> >
> > Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at:
> > http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
> >
> > Yahoo! Groups Links
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
>


------------------------------------

Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged Haiti: http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

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[Avid-L2] File - FAQ AVID-L2.txt

Welcome to the Avid-L2
FAQ!
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Background

Avid-L was established in 1994 at Calvin College by Steven Koster.
It was created to be a forum for Avid users to meet, discuss, and share
information.

Avid-L quickly grew into the premiere on-line users group for
professional film and video editors. It was one of the earliest examples

of an Internet community, allowing hundreds of editors worldwide to
share their experiences and expertise with their peers. There was no
better place for a professional Avid editor to get such wealth of
informed professional advice.

At various times, individual subscribers volunteered services to the
group. Searchable archives were maintained by Germany's Berlin Users
Group as well as the UIUC. A tips & tricks list was posted by Andy
Birkhead of Innovative Edit. Wes Plate, a longtime contributor, not only

shared key techniques on his Web site, he also created a photo gallery
for members' portraits.

In 1997, several subscribers began a tradition of meeting in person at
the NAB trade show in Las Vegas. The first gatherings were organized by Jaime Fowler. In 1999,
Avid Technology itself began sponsoring these gatherings as an exclusive reception and seminar for Avid-L members only. In 2002, this changed to the "Avid Users Group" meeting.

By 1999, Avid-L boasted over 1600 subscribers, exhibiting a true
international scope with over 300 international members. The community
included participants from a wide variety of well-known corporate
organizations in broadcasting, technical, and content creation fields,
as well as and multiple local TV stations, colleges, and universities.

In 2000, Avid-L joined AvidProNet.com, and then, in 2002, was integrated
Into Avid.com.

In 2005 Due to problems with signal to noise ratio and abusive posters, the Avid-L2 was formed. A year later the Avid-L was discontinued by Avid.

At the middle of 2006, the L2 has around 1100 members, with plenty of "lurker only" members who simply use the web version of the list. The L2 is spam-free, by moderation and with Yahoo's tools and will remain that way. The integrated archives with both old L and L2 posts came on line recently as well at the University of Illinois. That can be found at http://archives.itg.uiuc.edu/avid/.

Cross-posting to the FCP-L is welcome, tho reply's will not flow back to either list necessarily- check your own email reply preferences. The Final Cut list is found at: http://movies.groups.yahoo.com/group/FinalCutPro-L

Welcome, and Enjoy!

Extras!
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------------------------------------

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[Avid-L2] Re: A plea for Rec run TC on file based shoots, and to introduce 23.976

Bouke said:
> I am thinking that there is no need to shoot Rec Run tc anymore on
> file
> based shoots / workflows.

Definitely. Luckily, I was involved at the early stages of 2 films -
before shooting - and that's exactly what I asked for: Free run TC
based on Time of day. One of them being XDCam, I asked my assistant to
add a 4 digits tape number for each day MMDD (Month/Day) on ingest.
That way, there is no confusion possible as a same "tape" can't have
the same TC twice.
RecRun is very much a tape workflow, but the habit is deeply rooted in
most departments.

Pierre

------------------------------------

Please donate to the Red Cross to help those in earthquake ravaged Haiti: http://www.redcross.org/en/donatemoney

Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/

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