Hi Chris,
Feel free to ask me anything off-list if you feel the questions aren't relevant here.
Yes, Avid have done (and continue to do) DS a great disservice. They have never really understood what they have in DS and have never from the day they acquired it up until today known how to market it.
I can't begin to tell you the frustrations felt by DS users. The big launch by Autocreet of Smac two years after DS had been doing the same thing is a good example. Autodesk made a huge deal of this, yet Avid had droppped the concept a year previous. Avid could have moved quickly (instantly, if they so chose) to counter Smac by making software-only DS available again (it never went away, they simply stopped selling it) but they waited another year to do so.
" This raises some concerns about future development, the availability of skilled freelance labor and etc "
I'll come to development below, but the comment made so often on this list that "Nobody is an expert in everything, I prefer to send GFX work to the GFX specialist down the hall" - otherwise known as the "Jack Of All Trades argument" needs addressing. Yes, DS has a hugely powerful Graphics engine - certainly more powerful than I've seen in any other NLE - plus extensive node-based compositor, powerful CC tools, tracking, keying, etc etc. but that doesn't mean that every operator has to be proficient in every area. With any editing tool you use the areas that you need to use and feel proficient in. For some people that might mean they mostly do compositing, for others that might be mostly grading; the fact that one person never does any tracking doesn't mean that a tracker shouldn't be included for those that do. I don't have a problem with having a highly competent NLE that also includes the best possible compositor, the best graphics tools and so on. If you don't want to use a tool, then don't use it, but don't deprive the next operator from having it.
I can't tell you the number of times I, and other DS users on this list, see a 'feature request' mentioned for MC or Phony and sigh to ourselves "It's in DS, and has been for many years".
Avid have never understood how to market DS as "The ultimate finishing tool", and probably never will.
" How do you feel about the DS path ahead? Do you worry about the product dying or being left to wither away? "
Who knows? Avid have always been more tight-lipped about the future than Sarbanes-Oxley requires; that's their style. They were just the same prior to 2002. I am aware that DS development is continuing, and I've heard whispers about some exciting things that should be included in future releases, but while Avid continues to 'steal' the DS developers to shore-up MC's code base, DS development is consequently very slow.
" What do you perceive as its limitations? Anything as frustrating as Symphony users report? "
Oh sure it has limitations - loads of them. What product is perfect? For compositors, the biggest limitation is the lack of a true 3D compositing environment - forget Marquee, that's a joke. For Graphics guys there's a lot less to complain about, but assymetrical edge softness is one of them; there are workarounds, but they're clunky. For finishers the lack of 'Total Conform' from MC is the biggie, and one that's unforgivable really. Just about everything comes across from MC to DS these days, including BCC and Sapphire effects. However, they need copying/pasting from where DS conforms them to where they actually do as required. The worst bit of conforming is when DS attempts to interpret MC's antedulvian layered composites into something that makes sense. Everything's there on the timeline, but it often requires some pretty heavy head-scratching to reconfigure it to actually work properly. Oh, and every time MC has a new relase, they break DS conform.
Big Balls have been requested for years - well before Avid acquired Euphonix - and we're still waiting.
Considering that DS was always the one product within Avid's stable that knew how to handle file sources correctly, it's incredibly frustrating that MC can now handle more file types than DS. So we now have to use MC as a 'helper app' to get these files into DS. How nuts is that?
" Do you think there is a way to have it partner better with Composer like direct bin and sequence support? "
Absolutely. Direct bin support would be huge, but right now I'd settle for an AFE conform that actually brought everything into DS and required no user-intervention to get it working right.
" Or is the proper way to ditch Composer all together and go all DS all the time?"
Oh no, definitely not. MC is a hugely competent editor, honed over many years to incorporate just about every need that an editor might have. But it's not a finishing system - it was never designed to be. No amount of 'tacking things on' and calling it Symphony will change that. DS on the other hand is a competent editor that was designed from the ground up to be a finishing tool. Lots of folk do everything from offline through to finishing on DS, but that doesn't mean that MC isn't a better editor, especially for complex multicam jobs. For spot work, or 'simple' longform work you can ignore MC and do it all on DS. Again, you have the choice - after all, MC is thrown in free with every DS anyway. For my money, forget Phony and get Total Conform working on DS so that you don't need it in the first place.
Anyway, sorry for the length of this but I'm now done.
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris magid
Sent: 18 May 2011 22:15
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
Tony,
I hear you. DS has always intrigued us.
Years ago when the original Nitris was introduced we drooled over it. Quite a performer. You should see my earlier post.
We were thinking about becoming an all DS shop 3 years ago. Then Avid yanked the software only version which would of made a 6 seat operation practical for us (2-full DS, 4 software only).
The announcement last year of a-la carte DS came a month too late as we had already bought our OS X Smoke. Think it was a few more months before it shipped.
If it would just operate on Nitris DX hardware or Composer could operate on Kona
3 , you could really have something there.
Personally I think Avid has done DS a tremendous disservice. Like keeping a leggy blonde mistress a secret from your trust fund wife.
This raises some concerns about future development, the availability of skilled freelance labor and etc.
How do you feel about the DS path ahead? Do you worry about the product dying or being left to wither away? What do you perceive as its limitations? Anything as frustrating as Symphony users report? Do you think there is a way to have it partner better with Composer like direct bin and sequence support? Or is the proper way to ditch Composer all together and go all DS all the time?
I do read the google DS group from time to time but I am not completely up to date with the latest.
Would it be ok to send you a few more questions off list sometime regarding DS?
C.A. Magid
RTVF
________________________________
From: Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 2:48:15 PM
Subject: RE: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
" Realistically I think there is a point where needs like Color Correction, DVE, Compositing, Tracking, CG or Paint are better served in specialized applications like Resolve rather than bundled together in an NLE. "
But all those things (and a lot more) are already within an Avid NLE ;-)
Tony
-----Original Message-----
From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of chris magid
Sent: 18 May 2011 20:21
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Subject: Re: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
Honestly Tony, I was being modest and miserly.
Symphony contains much to fix and improve. So updating a lot of elements probably prevents any single feature like Color Correction dancing into "full tilt boogie".
Realistically I think there is a point where needs like Color Correction, DVE, Compositing, Tracking, CG or Paint are better served in specialized applications like Resolve rather than bundled together in an NLE.
The expertise of operators and artist may be a factor too.
My main concerns are quality and flexibility of existing functions before adding new ones. More frequent needs should be solved before extending features too far. Get good at what we are asked to do most.
Would I like a node based effects or color corrector in Symphony? Heck yes.
Do I expect to see one? Is there a practical way to add it on top of existing Composer structure? Probably not.
It is interesting that Smoke reserves its process tree node type interface for
its higher end linux offering. It is not available in the OS X version.
C.A. Magid
RTVF
________________________________
From: Tony Quinsee-Jover <tony@hdheaven.co.uk>
To: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Wed, May 18, 2011 6:35:30 AM
Subject: RE: [Avid-L2] Re: Hopeful news for Symphony
Why is it?
Tony
HD Heaven Media Limited (company no: 07061040) is registered in England and
Wales at Sapphire Heights Courtyard, 31 Tenby Street North, Birmingham B1
3ES
-----Original Message-----
From: Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of
chris magid
A node based tool is beyond reasonable expectations for a NLE module
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------------------------------------
Search the offical complete Avid-L archives at: http://archives.bengrosser.com/avid/
If you want to donate to Red Cross quake relief, you can do so through your cell phone. Text redcross to 90999 to make a $10 donation. It will be on your next cell bill.Yahoo! Groups Links
If you want to donate to Red Cross quake relief, you can do so through your cell phone. Text redcross to 90999 to make a $10 donation. It will be on your next cell bill.
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