This IS the Avid L2: [Avid-L2] Re: Unstable composite video out on SRW5500 when using internal black?

On the Sony's wasn't that the 1.5 heads? I worked more with Ampex 1 inch given I started at ABC.

--- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, "Mikeparsons.tv" <mikeparsons.tv@...> wrote:
>
> The one inch spec was for a confidence head, and you could not have the option in which case the scanner came with dummy heads...
>
>
>
> > On 13 Nov, 2013, at 12:02 pm, Mark Spano <cutandcover@...> wrote:
> >
> > First, I believe that the BVW decks were among the first to feature a confidence head. That's probably why there was initiative to make it a separate switch.
> >
> > And yeah, in performing an edit, you can imagine how the switching went relative to the physical position of the confidence head and the playback head. Since the two heads were 90Ëš away from each other on the drum, in preroll, you'd be on playback, then as soon as the edit went in, you'd electronically switch to confidence. You're at a physically different point on tape there, so you'd always see some glitch there as the edit happened. It was not provisioned with the more complex circuitry of the DVW and SRW decks, where these glitches are not apparent. Much more rolling back and checking edit points back then.
> >
> >
> >> On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 11:51 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@...> wrote:
> >>
> >> So on the BVW-70 even if the PB/EE switch is set to PB it is not until you flip the confidence switch that the deck output is coming off the PB heads. That is how I've always approached it. I'm trying to remember if in the linear days using the confidence heads on BetaSp made it hard to get a clean edit through the preview monitor or on systems that used E/E preview. For some reason in the edit room I don't remember worrying much about being on the confidence head. Would it cause enough of a delay that it might have made edits sound glitchy or look glitchy? I might be remembering the early headaches of PreRead editing when the preview switchers were programmed to show record output during an edit when with preread you needed the preview switcher to behave the same as a preview even in record. Oh I'm getting a little misty eyed remembering all that fun before I spent my time scrubbing and watching the render bar.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Mark Spano <cutandcover@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > Yes, on the 5500, if you have that item set to PB for Edit and PB for
> >> > Record (I forget at the moment if there are two different slots for those)
> >> > then it is playing to you from the confidence head while recording. And
> >> > yes, on the BVW, flipping the separate switch labeled Confi to ON does the
> >> > same. It is for both audio and video.
> >> >
> >> > I would be forced to agree that not every place you go has an ideal setup,
> >> > and this would dismay me to no end, especially since it is fairly easy to
> >> > achieve a proper reference setup. After all, a simple AJA Gen 10, some
> >> > cabling, and maybe a DA or two could be had for very cheap and would
> >> > provide in a pinch in any facility. Thankfully I've been able to aid in
> >> > designing and implementing a reference system at my facility that has both
> >> > bi-level and tri-level sync signals originating from a single synchronized
> >> > generator, and distributed to 14 edit rooms, 11 mix rooms, and a color
> >> > suite, all happy campers.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 9:09 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@> wrote:
> >> >
> >> > >
> >> > >
> >> > > Well I checked the machine in the alt home menu and it is set to PB in
> >> > > record mode. I assume that means I'm viewing with confidence head when in
> >> > > record which is reassuring. Now on the front panel of the BVW-70 it has the
> >> > > PB/EE switch which I always set to PB so it doesn't drop into EtoE during
> >> > > shuttle. There is also a confidence switch next to it. I've always figured
> >> > > if I didn't set the confidence to on I was not viewing the confidence head.
> >> > > On the SRW-5500 is there a confidence switch/menu item or is the fact that
> >> > > the PB/EE settings in the alt home menu are set to PB in Rec mean I'm
> >> > > viewing confidence head. Does the BVW-70 confidence switch only refer to
> >> > > audio confidence?
> >> > >
> >> > > In a perfect world everything would be properly referenced and timed but
> >> > > when I run from facility to facility and mobile truck to mobile truck or
> >> > > stage it's not always practical to insist on referencing to external.
> >> > > Sometimes I just have to go with the flow whether I like it or not. I love
> >> > > getting down to the nitty gritty on this stuff because I often find my
> >> > > procedures can always be improved.
> >> > >
> >> > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Mark Spano <cutandcover@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > "The problem I fear is that if I'm locked to external reference while
> >> > > > recording something that may be locked but way out of time and during the
> >> > > > recording everything looks okay E to E but then I go to playback the tape
> >> > > > and the video plays back a 3rd of a field down with a bunch of sync cross
> >> > > > hatch type stuff."
> >> > > >
> >> > > > Well then lucky for all of us, the 5500 has a Confidence head, something
> >> > > > that has been around since the digital SD days. Monitor off the
> >> > > Confidence
> >> > > > head, and you'll have layoff and QC done in one pass - hence
> >> > > "confidence".
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > >
> >> > > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:36 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@> wrote:
> >> > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > Look I'm all for external reference. The problem I fear is that if I'm
> >> > > > > locked to external reference while recording something that may be
> >> > > locked
> >> > > > > but way out of time and during the recording everything looks okay E
> >> > > to E
> >> > > > > but then I go to playback the tape and the video plays back a 3rd of a
> >> > > > > field down with a bunch of sync cross hatch type stuff. It's been a
> >> > > long
> >> > > > > time since I've had that happen but those scars are still there.
> >> > > That's why
> >> > > > > I felt it would be safer to lock to internal video for blacking from
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > internal signal generator. Apparently it's not but I've been asking
> >> > > this
> >> > > > > over and over for years and even the Product Support people at Sony
> >> > > haven't
> >> > > > > given me a convincing answer to the internal signal generator
> >> > > reference. I
> >> > > > > kind of feel like Bob Z use to about how to properly reference the BVW
> >> > > 1800
> >> > > > > decks using a short piece of coax looping from the machines video input
> >> > > > > because he couldn't get them to play nice any other way.
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > >
> >> > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, Mark Spano <cutandcover@> wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > Here's my bottom line on reference:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > What do you trust for clock timing? Your computer, or your ref
> >> > > generator?
> >> > > > > > Me, I've seen so much bad and weird video that comes from computers
> >> > > > > > (whether they be FCP / Avid / AJA / Nitris DX / BlackMagic / etc.)
> >> > > that I
> >> > > > > > have no faith in it for a solid reference. So I (and my entire 14-bay
> >> > > > > > facility) never do anything on these decks that requires changing the
> >> > > > > servo
> >> > > > > > off of External for reference. Well, except when you're using that
> >> > > good
> >> > > > > old
> >> > > > > > Teranex which throws timing out of whack.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > To me, any discrepancy in timing in my facility comes from the
> >> > > computers.
> >> > > > > > And that gets resolved instantly by choosing External Ref in the
> >> > > Video
> >> > > > > > Output Timing selector in your Avid (or Ext Ref setting in your AJA).
> >> > > > > > Choosing Input as your servo reference is just a simple way to get a
> >> > > job
> >> > > > > > done and it's fraught with potential problems. My whole job is to
> >> > > root
> >> > > > > out
> >> > > > > > potential problems and turn them into non-existent problems, and
> >> > > this is
> >> > > > > a
> >> > > > > > perfect case. Clock everything to one master reference generator and
> >> > > you
> >> > > > > > bypass problem city.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > If your cable runs are extremely long for composite video (aka Ref)
> >> > > then
> >> > > > > > you can run into issues. Always measure timing and integrity at
> >> > > critical
> >> > > > > > points and keep runs short enough to eliminate noise. DA at regular
> >> > > > > points
> >> > > > > > and life is good. I've got 14 bays on the 8th, 6th, and 3rd floors of
> >> > > > > this
> >> > > > > > NYC building all locked nicely to one constantly running reference
> >> > > master
> >> > > > > > clock.
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > "Virtually every "VTR Tech" I meet from rental houses always suggests
> >> > > > > using
> >> > > > > > video input servo reference"
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > This is because virtually every "VTR Tech" from those places is
> >> > > tired of
> >> > > > > > hearing calls about "why is the stop light flashing" and "how do I
> >> > > adjust
> >> > > > > > vertical hold on my layoff". This 'advice' is only for people who
> >> > > rent
> >> > > > > > decks and have little to zero knowledge of how they should be used.
> >> > > My
> >> > > > > > advice is to ask me, or ask Bob Z, who would (I am sure) tell them
> >> > > what
> >> > > > > I'm
> >> > > > > > telling you. And we both have loads of experience trying to scrub the
> >> > > > > world
> >> > > > > > of nonsense advice being passed off as soundâ€¦
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 7:06 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@> wrote:
> >> > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > Be careful because if the Avid burps on output it often will send
> >> > > > > unstable
> >> > > > > > > video to the record machine before the machine has dropped out of
> >> > > > > record.
> >> > > > > > > This results in what acts like a control track break and even if
> >> > > it's
> >> > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > technically a control track issue the only solution is to do an
> >> > > > > assemble
> >> > > > > > > edit from that point on. This can be catastrophic if you are
> >> > > punching
> >> > > > > a fix
> >> > > > > > > into a completed master.
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <jciron2005@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I've been using Input Video for about a year on HDCAM 55's & 5800
> >> > > > > with
> >> > > > > > > no problem.
> >> > > > > > > > It would not be my best choice but I had to one day and it worked
> >> > > > > great,
> >> > > > > > > so I've been doing it ever since
> >> > > > > > > > with no problems
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > ---In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com, <bigfish@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > I found the problem. This was a new vtr position that had not
> >> > > been
> >> > > > > used
> >> > > > > > > before for an HD deck and the HD output of the deck is normaled to
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > HD
> >> > > > > > > deck input so it needed to be dead patched to avoid a feed back
> >> > > loop. I
> >> > > > > > > never ever ever feed video input to a deck when blacking because
> >> > > > > contrary
> >> > > > > > > to what you say it does have an effect on the servo reference if
> >> > > you
> >> > > > > are
> >> > > > > > > set to video input. The common issue I've encountered is your deck
> >> > > is
> >> > > > > being
> >> > > > > > > feed from the avid bay. I go to black a tape on the deck with it
> >> > > still
> >> > > > > feed
> >> > > > > > > the Avid output. I set the deck, be it digibeta or SRW 5500 and
> >> > > other
> >> > > > > Sony
> >> > > > > > > decks, to internal black generator. I start blacking and then I go
> >> > > > > back and
> >> > > > > > > quit out of Avid and open another project. The video startup
> >> > > glitches
> >> > > > > that
> >> > > > > > > are then feed to the deck will cause a servo rereference that you
> >> > > can
> >> > > > > hear
> >> > > > > > > at the machine while the drum servo tries to relock. I agree that
> >> > > if
> >> > > > > I'm
> >> > > > > > > set to external servo reference this might not happen but over the
> >> > > > > years
> >> > > > > > > I've seen many a time when locking the record machine to external
> >> > > and
> >> > > > > not
> >> > > > > > > incoming video can create issues if the timing of the decks input
> >> > > > > signal is
> >> > > > > > > out of it's window of acceptance.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > When digital cutting I lock the avid to reference and I lock the
> >> > > > > deck to
> >> > > > > > > external reference and everything is fine. It's the fact that the
> >> > > SRW
> >> > > > > 5500
> >> > > > > > > internal video generator seems to be vastly out of time with the
> >> > > rest
> >> > > > > of
> >> > > > > > > the world that I opted to use video reference for the servo when
> >> > > > > blacking
> >> > > > > > > internally. What is illogical is that if I set the deck to lock to
> >> > > > > input
> >> > > > > > > video and I set the machine to internal black the servo reference
> >> > > > > should be
> >> > > > > > > derived from the internal black signal and not what's being fed to
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > video input connector on the back of the machine. In this case the
> >> > > > > servo is
> >> > > > > > > not referencing the actual video signal and that's where problems
> >> > > crop
> >> > > > > up.
> >> > > > > > > It's from years of 3/4 inch maintenance that I'm sensitive to
> >> > > Record
> >> > > > > Lock
> >> > > > > > > Phase type issues and that's what I'm trying to avoid here. I
> >> > > could be
> >> > > > > I'm
> >> > > > > > > just being overly cautious but it's been working a long time for
> >> > > me.
> >> > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com mailto:Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com,
> >> > > Mark
> >> > > > > > > Spano <cutandcover@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > You say:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > "To be safe when blacking tapes I unpatch any video input and I
> >> > > > > switch
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > servo reference to input video."
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > to me, that means you are disconnecting ref. Don't do that, and
> >> > > > > your
> >> > > > > > > stop
> >> > > > > > > > > light won't flash. Leave it on External SD Ref and you're good.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > Patching and unpatching video inputs while the deck is set to
> >> > > > > Internal
> >> > > > > > > > > Video Signal Gen BLACK has no effect - and will not glitch at
> >> > > all.
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 5:32 PM, johnrobmoore <bigfish@>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I do not disconnect Reference I disconnect the HDSDI video
> >> > > input.
> >> > > > > > > I've
> >> > > > > > > > > > found with Sony decks that even if you are set to internal
> >> > > video
> >> > > > > > > signal
> >> > > > > > > > > > generator if there is a glitch on the video input the deck
> >> > > > > burps. It
> >> > > > > > > > > > doesn't make sense but that's how they work. Because of this
> >> > > I
> >> > > > > always
> >> > > > > > > > > > unpatch any video input to the deck before blacking.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > Another thing I notice is the output of the deck changes
> >> > > > > drastically
> >> > > > > > > in
> >> > > > > > > > > > timing between normal input/EtoE mode and when set to
> >> > > internal
> >> > > > > signal
> >> > > > > > > > > > generator. Also when I switch to internal signal generator
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > stop
> >> > > > > > > light
> >> > > > > > > > > > starts flashing like there is some sort of reference issue.
> >> > > > > Because
> >> > > > > > > of this
> >> > > > > > > > > > I got in the habit of always setting the machine to servo
> >> > > > > reference
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > video input when blacking tapes.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > I just got of the phone with Sony and I'm going to try a
> >> > > first
> >> > > > > > > birthday to
> >> > > > > > > > > > see if that alters the behavior. I'm not sure this is a
> >> > > problem
> >> > > > > but
> >> > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > Sony tech confirmed you can black a tape with the machine
> >> > > > > connected
> >> > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > nothing. In that stand alone mode if I am monitoring the
> >> > > > > composite
> >> > > > > > > > > > character output I wouldn't expect the character box to sway
> >> > > left
> >> > > > > > > and right
> >> > > > > > > > > > in the picture which is what I'm seeing now. I'm sure I'd
> >> > > have
> >> > > > > > > noticed this
> >> > > > > > > > > > before if it always behaved this way.
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > --- In Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com mailto:
> >> > > Avid-L2@yahoogroups.com,
> >> > > > > Mark
> >> > > > > > > Spano <cutandcover@> wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > Q: why disconnect SD ref when blacking tapes? Seems
> >> > > > > unnecessary.
> >> > > > > > > The ref
> >> > > > > > > > > > is
> >> > > > > > > > > > > for servo - if you have no reference, then servo just runs
> >> > > off
> >> > > > > AC
> >> > > > > > > mains,
> >> > > > > > > > > > > with all its potential irregularities. When blacking tapes,
> >> > > > > leave
> >> > > > > > > SD ref
> >> > > > > > > > > > > connected, set servo ref to external, and set internal
> >> > > video /
> >> > > > > > > audio
> >> > > > > > > > > > signal
> >> > > > > > > > > > > generators to black / silence.
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2013 at 4:50 PM, John Moore <bigfish@>
> >> > > wrote:
> >> > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Got a rental SRW-5500 in today and I've set it up as I
> >> > > > > always do.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Starting with the Factory vtr settings and tweaking a few
> >> > > > > thing I
> >> > > > > > > > > > like. I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > run with external sync from composite SD black when doing
> >> > > > > > > digital cuts
> >> > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > tape and it works fine. To black the tape I set the deck
> >> > > to
> >> > > > > > > black on
> >> > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > internal signal generator and silence for audio.
> >> > > Whenever I
> >> > > > > > > black tapes
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > using the internal generator I always notice the stop
> >> > > light
> >> > > > > > > flashes as
> >> > > > > > > > > > if
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > there was no sync or problem sync. To be safe when
> >> > > blacking
> >> > > > > > > tapes I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > unpatch any video input and I switch the servo reference
> >> > > to
> >> > > > > input
> >> > > > > > > > > > video.
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > On today's machine when I looked at the composite
> >> > > character
> >> > > > > > > generator
> >> > > > > > > > > > out
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > while blacking I noticed the black box of time code was
> >> > > > > > > dithering left
> >> > > > > > > > > > and
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > right consistantly and then I noticed the front panel of
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > deck said
> >> > > > > > > > > > lost
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > lock. I busted the record and have found that unless I
> >> > > set
> >> > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > servo
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > reference to auto or external when blacking internally
> >> > > there
> >> > > > > > > appears
> >> > > > > > > > > > to be
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > some sort of unstable reference like issue. I have never
> >> > > seen
> >> > > > > > > this
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > behavior before and I've worked with this model a lot.
> >> > > You
> >> > > > > can
> >> > > > > > > black a
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > tape with the machine standalone with no signals using
> >> > > the
> >> > > > > > > internal
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > generators so why is this machine unstable when not set
> >> > > to
> >> > > > > > > reference
> >> > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > external sync source? This seems like a broke. Given I
> >> > > reset
> >> > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > factory I
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > feel the main settings are correct. Perhaps there is
> >> > > some odd
> >> > > > > > > Novram
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > setting that is tweaked that I've never had to deal
> >> > > with. I
> >> > > > > do
> >> > > > > > > realize
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > that for some reason the internal video signal generator
> >> > > > > always
> >> > > > > > > seems
> >> > > > > > > > > > to
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > have a very different timing window compared to when the
> >> > > > > deck is
> >> > > > > > > just
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > inputting a regular HDSDI source but I never seen this
> >> > > > > > > instability on
> >> > > > > > > > > > the
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > composite output when blacking tapes. Anybody got an idea
> >> > > > > what
> >> > > > > > > might
> >> > > > > > > > > > be up
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > here?
> >> > > > > > > > > > > >
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > John Moore
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Barking Trout Productions
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > Studio City, CA
> >> > > > > > > > > > > > bigfish@
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